Need help with ID: rusty, French, 650B
#1
Shifting is fun!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,712
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 268 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2077 Post(s)
Liked 3,904 Times
in
1,541 Posts
Need help with ID: rusty, French, 650B
Picked up this today. It appeared in the classifieds on Christmas eve and I managed to restrain myself for two whole weeks. But today it still had no takers, and I crumbled and gave the seller a call. Sure enough, I am now the owner of another derelict French bike.
It's a 60cm (barely) frame which was the main reason to be interested. At least I'll have a fighting chance of being able to ride it. Lots of parts have been replaced over the years, but the few things I did sort of recognize made it worth the price of admission, such as the bar stem, brake levers and the fenders. Anything else would be a bonus.

There's a braze-on for a monobloc derailleur:

Pedals, with some serious-looking straps:

Braze-on mount for the (original?) shifter and DIY solution for the double plateau:

Interesting head lug shape:

Seat cluster:

No immediate evidence of a head badge:

Lower head lug, fork crown and CLB "650" brake:

Fork ends:

PO's name and address:

So, what have I got here? I'll be spending the next couple of evenings carefully cleaning and looking for more clues.
TIA.
It's a 60cm (barely) frame which was the main reason to be interested. At least I'll have a fighting chance of being able to ride it. Lots of parts have been replaced over the years, but the few things I did sort of recognize made it worth the price of admission, such as the bar stem, brake levers and the fenders. Anything else would be a bonus.

There's a braze-on for a monobloc derailleur:

Pedals, with some serious-looking straps:

Braze-on mount for the (original?) shifter and DIY solution for the double plateau:

Interesting head lug shape:

Seat cluster:

No immediate evidence of a head badge:

Lower head lug, fork crown and CLB "650" brake:

Fork ends:

PO's name and address:

So, what have I got here? I'll be spending the next couple of evenings carefully cleaning and looking for more clues.
TIA.
#2
Disraeli Gears
Chainstay mounted derailleur suggests a bike built in the late 30s through the 50s, but probably in the earlier part of that period, given the slacker seat tube, more upright head tube, and wing nuts on front axle. I like the brake levers. It's a pity that it's spent so much time outdoors in the rain.
#3
Shifting is fun!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,712
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 268 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2077 Post(s)
Liked 3,904 Times
in
1,541 Posts
Chainstay mounted derailleur suggests a bike built in the late 30s through the 50s, but probably in the earlier part of that period, given the slacker seat tube, more upright head tube, and wing nuts on front axle. I like the brake levers. It's a pity that it's spent so much time outdoors in the rain.
The lugs are quite intricate and look nicely filed:

This, hoewever, looks to have been brazed on afterwards. I'd even say there has been something else in its place before that was removed:

The derailleur hanger too, looks pretty crude compared to other parts of the frame:

Some more details:





#4
Shifting is fun!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,712
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 268 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2077 Post(s)
Liked 3,904 Times
in
1,541 Posts
I haven't found a serial number yet, but something may be hiding beneath that black paint.
I did find the address on the 'dog tag': it's a Parisian address, quite close to the Père Lachaise cemetery.
I did find the address on the 'dog tag': it's a Parisian address, quite close to the Père Lachaise cemetery.
#5
Semper Fi
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,911
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1160 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times
in
217 Posts
Subscribing, just so I can get some idea of the year model and the brand you have there NF. Best wishes on the research and resurrection of this Frenchman.
Bill
Bill
__________________
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
#6
Shifting is fun!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,712
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 268 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2077 Post(s)
Liked 3,904 Times
in
1,541 Posts
And yes, the brake levers are rather nice. Hadn't seen these before, but they look better than the equivalent MAFAC items.

#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,082
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 257 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4139 Post(s)
Liked 5,410 Times
in
3,150 Posts
Seems to me the "dog tag" might represent the builder or shop, J Minard seems to ring a bell but cursory research turned up nothing. Going to go through the big Rene Herse book again. 

#8
Senior Member
How far are you taking this project?
How much is it from your normal fit?
Following with interest!
How much is it from your normal fit?
Following with interest!
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 13,616
Mentioned: 396 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3512 Post(s)
Liked 2,696 Times
in
1,815 Posts
These are me favourite guidonnets. The roughly triangular cross section of the lever makes for greater rigidity than other brands. Also holds true for their extension levers.
-----
#10
Shifting is fun!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,712
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 268 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2077 Post(s)
Liked 3,904 Times
in
1,541 Posts
Dunno. I'd like to get it back on the road (preferably with me on it), but it is 2-4 cms smaller than I would need for a French fit.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 13,616
Mentioned: 396 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3512 Post(s)
Liked 2,696 Times
in
1,815 Posts
-----
Lugset appears it may be NERVEX 86bis/158.

-----
Lugset appears it may be NERVEX 86bis/158.

-----
#12
Disraeli Gears
The rear dropouts have a design that's very similar to the (non-forged) ones used on many British bikes in the late 40s and early 50s (before the British began importing Simplex and Campagnolo forged dropouts). I'm not a dropout expert, but I've heard them called "Stallard" (after Percival Stallard, who designed his own) or Cyclo.
P T Stallard
The integral fender eyelets are not quite the same as those on a bike I have so equipped; but their shape, opening, and the "droop" on the top front of the slot are very similar. I'm not suggesting that the frame is not French; 650B alone sort of quashes that notion. And it's quite possible that English and French builders were using the same designs, made by native providers.
P T Stallard
The integral fender eyelets are not quite the same as those on a bike I have so equipped; but their shape, opening, and the "droop" on the top front of the slot are very similar. I'm not suggesting that the frame is not French; 650B alone sort of quashes that notion. And it's quite possible that English and French builders were using the same designs, made by native providers.
#13
Mr. Anachronism
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere west of Tobie's
Posts: 2,089
Bikes: fillet-brazed Chicago Schwinns, and some other stuff
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Liked 255 Times
in
164 Posts
Fascinating bike! Hope you can get it the rest of the way apart, and on a course for refurbishment. It appears that the bike list in your signature isn't entirely accurate!

__________________
"My only true wisdom is in knowing I have none" -Socrates
"My only true wisdom is in knowing I have none" -Socrates
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Bethesda/Baltimore MD
Posts: 3,902
Bikes: '72 Moto Grand Record, '72 Gitane tandem, '72 Raleigh Super Course, '73 Raleigh Gran Sport, '73 and '76 Colnagos Super, '76 Fiorelli Coppi, '78 Raleigh SBDU Team Pro, '78 Trek 930, '81 Holdsworth Special 650B, '86 Masi GC, '87 Panasonic DX5000
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 750 Post(s)
Liked 434 Times
in
243 Posts
Nice find. What is the weight of the frame like? You may want to drop a line to Jan Heine at BQ. He's pretty up on old french 650b bikes.
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
#15
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 40,330
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 502 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7093 Post(s)
Liked 2,009 Times
in
1,193 Posts
Goodness, you have a lot of work ahead of you.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#16
PeopleCode delaminator
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manhattan & Woodstock NY
Posts: 2,565
Bikes: 1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, early '70s Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Raleigh International, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mk1
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked 2,382 Times
in
827 Posts
That could be a lot of fun! If nothing is seriously wrong that may be quite a beauty in the "after"
__________________
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
#18
Shifting is fun!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,712
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 268 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2077 Post(s)
Liked 3,904 Times
in
1,541 Posts
I may not be too bad. The bike was apparently well looked after before it was left outside, as everything came apart quite easily. Even the cotter pins popped out with just one firm tap. The only thing that slightly worries me is the fork, which looks to have suffered a sideways shunt of sorts. I'll need to investigate that a little further before delivering a verdict. The tires are gone and the saddle leather is toast, but otherwise we've got a fully functional bike, as far as I can see.
The black top coat is obviously a repaint and I've tried to carefully remove some of it in the obvious places on the down tube and seat tube to see if there were any identifying marks left.
The original color looks to have been grey, with cream or white box lining:

On the seat tube, something that looks like a cream-colored "swoosh" is appearing. It's in the area where one would expect a painted panel or brand mark:
The black top coat is obviously a repaint and I've tried to carefully remove some of it in the obvious places on the down tube and seat tube to see if there were any identifying marks left.
The original color looks to have been grey, with cream or white box lining:

On the seat tube, something that looks like a cream-colored "swoosh" is appearing. It's in the area where one would expect a painted panel or brand mark:

#19
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 40,330
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 502 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7093 Post(s)
Liked 2,009 Times
in
1,193 Posts
I don't mean to imply it's not worth the trouble, just that it will be a lot of trouble.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#20
Semper Fi
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,911
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1160 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times
in
217 Posts


Bill
__________________
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
#21
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 40,330
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 502 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7093 Post(s)
Liked 2,009 Times
in
1,193 Posts
Right, I should have said work, as in, a labor of love.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#22
Shifting is fun!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,712
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 268 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2077 Post(s)
Liked 3,904 Times
in
1,541 Posts
Well, I'm still "working" on it. 
As it seems that some stuff has been added later on and it feels rather light (not to say flimsy), it just occurred to me that the bike may originally have been a more racing-oriented machine that has been made into a tourer later in life.
So I weighed it, and frame and fork, including headset, bottom bracket and a couple of bolts add up to 3.7kg.
And with a couple of 700C wheels it looks like this:

As it seems that some stuff has been added later on and it feels rather light (not to say flimsy), it just occurred to me that the bike may originally have been a more racing-oriented machine that has been made into a tourer later in life.
So I weighed it, and frame and fork, including headset, bottom bracket and a couple of bolts add up to 3.7kg.
And with a couple of 700C wheels it looks like this:

#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 13,616
Mentioned: 396 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3512 Post(s)
Liked 2,696 Times
in
1,815 Posts
-----
Interesting that there is plenty of room for 700's.
Appears there would be even room for 700's with mudguards.
Those CLB 650 calipers must have quite a looooooooong reach.
-----
Interesting that there is plenty of room for 700's.
Appears there would be even room for 700's with mudguards.
Those CLB 650 calipers must have quite a looooooooong reach.
-----
#24
Senior Member


Too bad it has one of those vulgar derailleur things added on...

#25
Newbie
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 53
Bikes: 1974 Raleigh Super Course Mk II, 1982 Trek 510, 2016 Velo Orange Polyvalent
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Back when I was first playing with my '75 Peugeot PX50L, I was able to fit SKS longboard fenders with a 35mm tire on a 700c wheel set. There was very little clearance as a 38mm tire would rub the front fender. The specified wheel set was a 38mm 650b. The only difference between 650b and 700c on that frame was the brake (650b = RAID, 700c = Racer)