What are some holy grail Japan vintage rides?
01-27-18, 10:47 PM
#76
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01-27-18, 11:32 PM
#77
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That's very similar to the FRCC01 frame shown on page 15 of Panasonic Order System Catalog 2017 (which is probably the latest, as I received a copy directly from Panasonic just two weeks ago). Sizing is in one centimetre increments from 460 to 630 mm. The basic price for the frame is JPY 135,000 plus tax. The price includes any of a number of one-colour paint jobs; but your preferred finish costs JPY 8,000 extra. Here it is on the web. (All the info is in Japanese.)
01-28-18, 12:12 AM
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Not anymore. Now opinions are crowd-sourced. The social media age has no use for expert opinions. Now the mob rules even in cultural matters.
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01-28-18, 05:41 AM
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^^^ True. Besides who determines who's an expert? What criteria is used?
"I'm an expert at going slow on my bike".
"I'm an expert at going slow on my bike".
01-28-18, 11:27 AM
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Yes. Inherent to human nature is laziness and the need for assurance. Experts address both. Inside the expert "world" there exists a competition for credibility and validity that we tend to assume drives informed opinions.
So in that, I agree. The market looks to be reinforced, reassured, and is too lazy to do it's own research. There is also an assumption the expert has access to information not normally available. All of this makes us able to rationalize the dependency on expert opinion.
I know this, because it's on the internet.
So in that, I agree. The market looks to be reinforced, reassured, and is too lazy to do it's own research. There is also an assumption the expert has access to information not normally available. All of this makes us able to rationalize the dependency on expert opinion.
I know this, because it's on the internet.
01-28-18, 11:32 AM
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Side note, but relevant. Find a close-up picture of the paint on a Schwinn PDG Series 7 650cm frame, and then wonder a bit about the lack of artistic flair with that marque and lineup.
(Those who have had them know exactly what I mean) It's a secret.
(Those who have had them know exactly what I mean) It's a secret.
01-28-18, 03:31 PM
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01-28-18, 03:51 PM
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Toei, Cherubim, 3Rensho, and Ebisu come to mind, but I defer to @Dawes-man, one of our expert forum members living in Japan (the rest of the original thread on vintage Japanese lightweights is worth a look, too):
There are quite a few Japanese makers that I had never heard of before coming to Japan. This is a list I have compiled with the help of Mr Sugiyama, the guy who made my Katakura Silk. They were all names he remembers from his time as a Keirin rider in the 1960s.
Toei
Ravanello (maybe)
Norton
National (known as Panasonic in the US, I think)
Koufuu
Everest
Nichibei Fuji
Sanno Sports (Eminenza)
There are many others from the 1970s and 1980s that you see here but that people outside Japan are unlikely to ever come across, like:
Amanda
Hirose
Level
Vivalo
Futaba
Romani
Nagasawa
Higashikawa
Quark
And then there were a lot of small makers in the late 70s, early 80s, examples you might just see one of in 20 years. This is just such one, called a Prosit. A friend bought it from a friend, a heavy smoker who'd had it hanging up on the wall of his office since he bought it in 1982. It had a mixture of Camapgnolo Super Record and Nuovo Record, stained nicotine-yellow. The RD was a 1st generation Super Record with the black knuckles and a Nuovo Super Record seat post, a kind I'd never seen before.
It's obviously a well put together frame, as you can see from the photos below. The frame and forks are Ishiwata 019. As for the makes in the above list, I have photos of most of them if anyone would like me to post them here...
[IMG]
IMG_6196 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]
IMG_6197 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]
IMG_6198 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]
IMG_6201 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]
IMG_6202 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
Toei
Ravanello (maybe)
Norton
National (known as Panasonic in the US, I think)
Koufuu
Everest
Nichibei Fuji
Sanno Sports (Eminenza)
There are many others from the 1970s and 1980s that you see here but that people outside Japan are unlikely to ever come across, like:
Amanda
Hirose
Level
Vivalo
Futaba
Romani
Nagasawa
Higashikawa
Quark
And then there were a lot of small makers in the late 70s, early 80s, examples you might just see one of in 20 years. This is just such one, called a Prosit. A friend bought it from a friend, a heavy smoker who'd had it hanging up on the wall of his office since he bought it in 1982. It had a mixture of Camapgnolo Super Record and Nuovo Record, stained nicotine-yellow. The RD was a 1st generation Super Record with the black knuckles and a Nuovo Super Record seat post, a kind I'd never seen before.
It's obviously a well put together frame, as you can see from the photos below. The frame and forks are Ishiwata 019. As for the makes in the above list, I have photos of most of them if anyone would like me to post them here...
[IMG]
IMG_6196 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]
IMG_6197 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]
IMG_6198 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]
IMG_6201 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]
IMG_6202 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]
01-28-18, 04:31 PM
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Mine had them quite pronounced and noticeable. I've not seen them anywhere else.
You had to get close, or just the right light, then "whoa?"
01-28-18, 04:39 PM
#86
十人十色
Not to deny this, this claim is complicated by the fact that a lot of the De Rosas were built by Nagasawa, whose later frames under his own name are beautiful.
01-28-18, 04:53 PM
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01-28-18, 05:47 PM
#88
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Toei, Cherubim, 3Rensho, and Ebisu come to mind, but I defer to @Dawes-man, one of our expert forum members living in Japan (the rest of the original thread on vintage Japanese lightweights is worth a look, too):
There's a claim somewhere above that, in their heyday, Japanese makers just imitated Italian and other bikes and built them down to a price. My experience of Japanese and Italian frames is very limited .... [ahem] actually I have extensive experience of a grand total of one of each (1982 Miyata, circa 1990 Cinelli). Neither shows any mechanical flaw that I've noticed. I'm happy to ride either and don't regret either purchase. As for finish, the paintwork of the Miyata is excellent (handsome and resistant to scrapes); that of the Cinelli is cheesy (matte and shows grease spots, eager to flake off at the very slightest encouragement). But every one of the lugs of the ("made in Italy"!) Cinelli has a tiny Cinelli mark, which I suppose should thrill me more than do the more elegant, if undecorated, lugs on the Miyata. Plus the Cinelli's BB has Italian threading (clockwise both sides), whose advantages over British/Japanese threading must surely be major (it's Italian!) but yet somehow manage to elude me (probably because I've been brainwashed by the Japanese).
01-28-18, 07:30 PM
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None of which is to criticize or take away from Nagasawa or Japanese production techniques...I love Japanese bikes. But they sometimes get credit for being what they're not here.
To me the Japanese bikes most deserving of credit are the full tourers...which, while they may have taken bits and bobs from other designs...put it together in an economical, utilitarian, elegant package. They definitely changed the game here. As I previously mentioned, the Lotus/Tsondo aero bikes are truly impressive.
The earlier mentioned Bridgestones are designed by an American for an American market...I hardly think of them as influential Japanese bikes...and that's the key thing, not many of these bikes that we love were even designed by Japanese builders. This is, to me, why very few of them are really that important or interesting. Even if they are well built and excellent value. The XO-1's influence has exactly zero to do with anything Japanese.
Does interesting and influential matter much from a ride perspective? Not really...but that's also not what this thread about...which is value/collector markets and perspective.
Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 01-28-18 at 07:44 PM.
01-29-18, 12:18 AM
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I don't think it complicates it at all...I think it illustrates the point. One of Japan's better regarded builders spent time working under Ugo De Rosa in Italy. Ugo De Rosa didn't spend time working under a Japanese builder, or learning bicycle geometry from Keirin races.
None of which is to criticize or take away from Nagasawa or Japanese production techniques...I love Japanese bikes. But they sometimes get credit for being what they're not here.
To me the Japanese bikes most deserving of credit are the full tourers...which, while they may have taken bits and bobs from other designs...put it together in an economical, utilitarian, elegant package. They definitely changed the game here. As I previously mentioned, the Lotus/Tsondo aero bikes are truly impressive.
The earlier mentioned Bridgestones are designed by an American for an American market...I hardly think of them as influential Japanese bikes...and that's the key thing, not many of these bikes that we love were even designed by Japanese builders. This is, to me, why very few of them are really that important or interesting. Even if they are well built and excellent value. The XO-1's influence has exactly zero to do with anything Japanese.
Does interesting and influential matter much from a ride perspective? Not really...but that's also not what this thread about...which is value/collector markets and perspective.
None of which is to criticize or take away from Nagasawa or Japanese production techniques...I love Japanese bikes. But they sometimes get credit for being what they're not here.
To me the Japanese bikes most deserving of credit are the full tourers...which, while they may have taken bits and bobs from other designs...put it together in an economical, utilitarian, elegant package. They definitely changed the game here. As I previously mentioned, the Lotus/Tsondo aero bikes are truly impressive.
The earlier mentioned Bridgestones are designed by an American for an American market...I hardly think of them as influential Japanese bikes...and that's the key thing, not many of these bikes that we love were even designed by Japanese builders. This is, to me, why very few of them are really that important or interesting. Even if they are well built and excellent value. The XO-1's influence has exactly zero to do with anything Japanese.
Does interesting and influential matter much from a ride perspective? Not really...but that's also not what this thread about...which is value/collector markets and perspective.
I haven't seen any Japanese bikes that struck me as essentially "Italian" in its their geometry.
01-29-18, 01:17 AM
#91
十人十色
I don't think it complicates it at all...I think it illustrates the point. One of Japan's better regarded builders spent time working under Ugo De Rosa in Italy. Ugo De Rosa didn't spend time working under a Japanese builder, or learning bicycle geometry from Keirin races.
01-29-18, 08:10 AM
#92
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It does a disservice to all frame builders to imply that the Italians invented the important geometry of the road bicycle and other builders are merely imitators. The Italians aren't going to be copying the Japanese, but the English weren't necessarily copying the Italians. Any decent frame builder takes what they've learned and forms their own opinions, even Japanese builders.
I haven't seen any Japanese bikes that struck me as essentially "Italian" in its their geometry.
I haven't seen any Japanese bikes that struck me as essentially "Italian" in its their geometry.
None of which impugns the quality and value of so many Japanese production bikes, nor does it diminish the work of Japanese builders. It certainly doesn't make them any less a rider. Nagasawa is a grail builder in the same way that Sachs is (who studied over seas).
The Japanese builders predominantly made their mark on bikes that most of us won't ever own. The stuff that we talk about is often as Japanese as an iPhone is Chinese.
02-02-18, 04:47 PM
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I was just wondering this same thing the other day. Thanks everyone for posting.
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02-08-18, 06:18 AM
#94
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as @texaspandj noted: I would check out Zunow and 3rensho (sanresho) for the relatively attainable grail bikes that are made by hand in Japan, and also branded as Japanese. Takeru Kageyama (Zunow) was reportedly a big fan of the Italian bikes/makers and his bikes tend to reflect that.
my zunow is not all that pretty(had a rough life before I got it) but here is one with such a flamboyant paintjob to put colnago on notice:
my zunow is not all that pretty(had a rough life before I got it) but here is one with such a flamboyant paintjob to put colnago on notice:
Most of the Japanese brands I've read about on these forums were mass-produced, albeit of very good quality and finish. Were there many hand-made japanese brands apart from the one you posted?
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02-08-18, 09:07 AM
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P1060644.JPG
Nishiki Professional, this one is all Campagnolo gruppo with lovely lug work. Tracked down all the missing pieces so it is as it was sold, except added the Silca pump painted with color matched and banded to match the frame.
Nishiki Professional, this one is all Campagnolo gruppo with lovely lug work. Tracked down all the missing pieces so it is as it was sold, except added the Silca pump painted with color matched and banded to match the frame.
02-08-18, 12:03 PM
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Early 1980s Lotus Supreme, Lotus Odyssey, Ompax, or Tsunoda IC. Frames by Tsunoda manufacturer in Nagoya, Japan. Sorry, no pictures, as I do not see these bicycles around these parts
02-08-18, 10:28 PM
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I have three of mine (my Toei, my Atlantis, and my Panasonic).
In terms of touring/ rando frames, I'm still looking for a Katakura Silk SC-15 W or DS... maybe a Cherubim.
For road frames, I'm keeping the barn doors open for a Nagasawa, 3Rensho, or Katakura Silk. The particular KS road frame I have in mind is pretty rare; the Nagasawa & Rensho less so, but in six years of looking, I have yet to find either in my size; they've all been either too large or too small.
Certainly a Kalavinka Super Exhibition; possibly one of the sexiest bikes I've seen.
Just for the fun of it, I've always wanted a Fuji 'Black Ace' or Miyata 914.
In terms of touring/ rando frames, I'm still looking for a Katakura Silk SC-15 W or DS... maybe a Cherubim.
For road frames, I'm keeping the barn doors open for a Nagasawa, 3Rensho, or Katakura Silk. The particular KS road frame I have in mind is pretty rare; the Nagasawa & Rensho less so, but in six years of looking, I have yet to find either in my size; they've all been either too large or too small.
Certainly a Kalavinka Super Exhibition; possibly one of the sexiest bikes I've seen.
Just for the fun of it, I've always wanted a Fuji 'Black Ace' or Miyata 914.
02-08-18, 10:39 PM
#98
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Here my Schwinn Peloton made by Panasonic with Columbus SL and SP. The craftsmanship is just outstanding and the paint job too. I have been always a big fan of the Panasonic pic program for customization.
02-09-18, 06:35 PM
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Oh yes!
Certainly at the Cherubim, 3Rensho, and Miyuki (all from the Konno brothers) —
But, the coolest secret is that they sometimes built for the larger manufacturers and exporters —
The Fuji Opus III is an example of a (virtually) unrecognized superbike —
NO ONE who rides an Opus III is not addicted —
There's a reason for that —
In the last two years 3Renshos have started to go through the roof, cost wise, anything built with Ishiwata Prestige would indicate a high level of expertise –
Enjoyed reading everyone's contribution in this thread —
Anyone have a 1987 Lotus Elan 75?
One of the great challenges for the Japanese builders/companies was overcoming the Italian mystique — the Avis problem of having to try harder; sad thing as just as they were (and did) eclipse the marketplace the Yen advantage evaporated.
Cheers all!
Back to my last days of fact checking ———
:-)
Certainly at the Cherubim, 3Rensho, and Miyuki (all from the Konno brothers) —
But, the coolest secret is that they sometimes built for the larger manufacturers and exporters —
The Fuji Opus III is an example of a (virtually) unrecognized superbike —
NO ONE who rides an Opus III is not addicted —
There's a reason for that —
In the last two years 3Renshos have started to go through the roof, cost wise, anything built with Ishiwata Prestige would indicate a high level of expertise –
Enjoyed reading everyone's contribution in this thread —
Anyone have a 1987 Lotus Elan 75?
One of the great challenges for the Japanese builders/companies was overcoming the Italian mystique — the Avis problem of having to try harder; sad thing as just as they were (and did) eclipse the marketplace the Yen advantage evaporated.
Cheers all!
Back to my last days of fact checking ———
:-)
02-09-18, 11:00 PM
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Here are a couple grail Japanese bicycles..In my opinion anyway..
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