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Old Italian Bike ID request

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Old Italian Bike ID request

Old 04-11-18, 11:15 AM
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solidtyres
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Old Italian Bike ID request

My father purchased this bike used in the mid 70's at a garage sale. I'm not going to show the decals, to avoid bias and I think they might be wrong. He had it repainted and a new decal set installed by a shop back then. He rode this bike hard for a lot of years, with minimal maintenance. I refurbished the bike once for a birthday gift, then it was ridden hard again.

Updated:
66.4 shell width, Italian thread
27.0 post
Tubulars
Came with Campy NR crank, derailleurs, bar end shifters, high flange hubs, post, and cable clamps.
Had Universal Model 61 brakes, he changed them to Campy.

It's pretty hard to make out the serial number on the shell, this is my best guess





It came with this stem and bars:


Campy Dropouts




Nervex lugs



Thanks for the help.

Last edited by solidtyres; 04-12-18 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 04-11-18, 11:30 AM
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-----

The big long NERVEX number not a serial. Markings refer to specifications of shell.

The 56 is most likely a size marking. The letter A invites one to speculate about marques beginning with this letter...

When you performed the refurbishment did you discover any marking on steerer?

Combination of shell width and thread quite odd. Makes one wonder if it may have been tapped out from another thread. Alternately, one possibility is that shell has been taken down in width to permit the use of a spindle intended for 68mm.

Have you closely examined sides of seat tube for possible marking?

Is Campag HS locknut marked "ITALY" or other?

Pillar size - 26.8mm slightly surprising. Frame more than nice enough to make one expect a 27.0mm or 27.2mm size. Wonder if pillar correct size. Are binder ears pinched down to touching or near touching? Or possibly seat tube may be something other than SP/SL.

Dropout adjuster screws have been replaced with ones for a shorter and later set of Campag ends.

Date guess: ~1964.

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Last edited by juvela; 04-11-18 at 12:48 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 04-11-18, 01:07 PM
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Back when I refurbished around 1980 (with your assistance, juvela ) we "knew " what kind of bike it was so, no investigation needed. I haven't taken it apart yet, to look at steerer.
The HS locknut has CAMPAGNOLO---PATENT---CAMPAGNOLO--- ITALY---

Frame is 56cm center to top.

I am pretty sure about the BB threading, because he took out the Campy BB and replaced with Phil Wood, and I have an Italian Campy BB in my stash, and don't know where else it would have come from. Looked all over the seat tube, don't see anything. Paint is pretty thick, and lots of touchups.

I replaced the adjusters back then.

Thanks again, glad you chimed in.
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Old 04-11-18, 01:44 PM
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Wait, you worked with @juvela around 1980? Do tell.

Very nice bike, BTW.
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Old 04-11-18, 01:46 PM
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Are there/were there any holes in head tube for head emblem mounting?

Asked about seat tube marking as this is where Cesare Rizzato (Atala, Lygie & Maino brands) places the serial number. The frame's stay to dropout junction is consistent with the way this manufacturer did it - of course it is not unique to them. An Atala identification would fit in with the A56 marking. Wild speculation only.

The frame's NERVEX Professional lug set is much more commonly encountered on bicycles from France and from Britain than on those from Italy so its use would tend to narrow the manufacturer identification possibilities.

Darn it, why can't I recall ID? Gosh, it's only been thirty-eight years!

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Old 04-11-18, 01:55 PM
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-----

Rusty "memory" shimmering dimly...

IIRC your dad said he purchased it from some teenagers at a garage sale and that it was a Masi.

Crown is consistent with one Masi used in 1960's. And Masi did build with the NERVEX Professional lug set at one time.

However, chainstays are dimpled so that would make it prior to the round-oval-round chainstays so associated with the marque.

Most likely the Special model.

Predates launch of Campag brakes by five years or so. You are spot on in thinking it would have come originally with Universal brakes.

Noted that fork ends have been opened up a bit.

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Last edited by juvela; 04-11-18 at 02:16 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 04-11-18, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
wait, you worked with @juvela around 1980? Do tell.

very nice bike, btw.
x2!
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Old 04-11-18, 02:11 PM
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My first vintage bike was a Raleigh International frame and fork bought at a GS for $25. Maybe 1978? I didn't know much, and met juvela to get some parts to build it up. He was gracious and put up with me on a long learning curve. I subsequently got a dumpster Gitane TdF, and he again provided. By that time I was going to the Oakland Police auctions and had a source for vintage junk myself.
Ironically, my dad met juvela independently from me, in a non-bike connection.

I'm really unconnected from people in the biking world, but juvela remains one of my tenuous links.

The subject bike: no headbadge holes

I just saw that the campy seat post is marked 27, it measures at 26.8 (varies a little). And the slot at the adjuster is closed enough at the top that I could imagine it being 27.2 originally.
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Old 04-11-18, 02:24 PM
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Fork tips: Dad was also an acquaintance of Phil Wood, and good friend of the guy who owned the two car garage where Phil Wood bike parts started. So, Dad liked Phil Wood parts. Along with the PW BB , this bike also got some PW hubs and pedals. Maybe the "modern" PW hubs had a larger axle?

I don't really care for the PW aesthetics, especially on this bike, and especially the pedals, but there is no arguing about the performance. Flawless with zero maintenance for a long long time.
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Old 04-11-18, 02:58 PM
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-----

For comparison, the forum has a member with a 1965 Special in concours condition. It exhibits the same crown and ends but is constructed with different lugs and shell. Also, its chainstays are late enough to show the round-oval-round pattern.

https://m.bikeforums.net/showthread.p...3947&highlight

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Old 04-11-18, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by solidtyres View Post
My father purchased this bike used in the mid 70's at a garage sale. I'm not going to show the decals, to avoid bias and I think they might be wrong. He had it repainted and a new decal set installed by a shop back then. He rode this bike hard for a lot of years, with minimal maintenance. I refurbished the bike once for a birthday gift, then it was ridden hard again.

66.4 shell width, Italian thread
26.8 post
Tubulars
Came with Campy NR crank, derailleurs, bar end shifters, high flange hubs, post, and cable clamps.
Might have had Universal side pull brakes, but if so he changed them to Campy.

It's pretty hard to make out the serial number on the shell, this is my best guess


Thanks for the help.
More photos would help. I'd like to see the seatlug area, for example. You can fuzz out or crop the decals if you're worried about bias. But I don't think that's going to be a problem. Since you've already said the decals might be wrong, we're going to take that into account.
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Old 04-11-18, 03:29 PM
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I'll get some better photos this evening.
I also looked at the Universal brakes, that came from him loose, and they are Model 61 centerpull.
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Old 04-11-18, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by solidtyres View Post
My first vintage bike was a Raleigh International frame and fork bought at a GS for $25. Maybe 1978? I didn't know much, and met juvela to get some parts to build it up. He was gracious and put up with me on a long learning curve. I subsequently got a dumpster Gitane TdF, and he again provided. By that time I was going to the Oakland Police auctions and had a source for vintage junk myself.
Ironically, my dad met juvela independently from me, in a non-bike connection.

I'm really unconnected from people in the biking world, but juvela remains one of my tenuous links.

(...)
Thank you. Yes, juvela is good at dealing with 'easy-flowing' learning curves. Many of them here, mine being one of them.
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Old 04-11-18, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghrumpy View Post
More photos would help. I'd like to see the seatlug area, for example. You can fuzz out or crop the decals if you're worried about bias. But I don't think that's going to be a problem. Since you've already said the decals might be wrong, we're going to take that into account.
-----

IIRC transfer set is for Gran Criterium, all owner could find at the time.

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Old 04-11-18, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
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IIRC transfer set is for Gran Criterium, all owner could find at the time.

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Correctly ID'ing the improper decal set without seeing it, pretty good service proved here on BF CV!

Now, does anyone remember the owner of "The Bicycle Shop" in Concord CA?
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Old 04-11-18, 04:39 PM
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That would be noneother than Mister. Donald J. Milberger, formerly of Lawrence Livermore Labs.

Also founder of Bicycle Research Tools.

Trade show recollection -

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/opini...0#.Ws6N7hxUvhI

Obituary -

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/eas...&pid=137354542

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Last edited by juvela; 04-11-18 at 06:28 PM. Reason: fix linque
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Old 04-11-18, 05:06 PM
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Yes, my dad knew him from LLL, and he did the paint job on this bike. Pretty sure he also swapped in the PW BB and rebuilt the wheels with the PW hubs at the same time.
Now I'm guessing: the Phil Wood BB was made for 68mm, and the shell was milled down for that prior to painting.
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Old 04-11-18, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghrumpy View Post
More photos would help. I'd like to see the seatlug area, for example. You can fuzz out or crop the decals if you're worried about bias. But I don't think that's going to be a problem. Since you've already said the decals might be wrong, we're going to take that into account.
Don't worry about the decals. If they don't match the frame, someone here will spot it and report it.

Looking forward to seeing the more complete photos. I am intrigued.
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Old 04-11-18, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer View Post
Don't worry about the decals. If they don't match the frame, someone here will spot it and report it.
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I get reported and bike is confiscated for wrong decals put on in the '70s by a former radiation scientist.
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Old 04-11-18, 05:57 PM
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With the Phil Wood bottom bracket cartridge there would be no need to reduce the width of the cycle's bottom bracket shell. The lockrings holding it fast thread into the shell and do not butt up against the shell faces.

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Old 04-12-18, 12:34 AM
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Here's some more info:
Seat tube C-C is 54.5
Top tube C-C is 54.5
Chainstay C-C is 44
Wheelbase to C of dropout is 100.5


Picture info:

Shell "A 56"
Brake bridge
Rear derailleur, came with bike
Lower headset cup has <C>
The seat cluster lug has an "A" stamp.
Seat post slot is slightly crimped at top with 27.0 post.
The steer tube has "A 56" stamp, and nothing else detectable.
The heasdset lock nut underside says "ITALY" and "25.4 x 24F"
Inside of headtube has two raised bumps corresponding to filled badge holes.
Inside of crown has a step on the lug extension.



















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Old 04-12-18, 12:40 AM
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As I mentioned , the bike was painted shortly after my dad got it. There was a clear coat put over the new decals, and it reacted a bit and wrinkled them, so they were very fragile. Combined with my dad riding the bike like a bike and not a showpiece, there is a lot of damage to the paint and decals. But we're fairly sure the decals are wrong anyway.

My dad and the bike on the day of a memorial ride for Phil Wood April 18, 2010.




Phil Wood CHP approved pedals
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Old 04-12-18, 05:26 AM
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Thanks so much for all of these excellent detail images!

Somehow I suspect the handsome fisherman knit sweater dad wears in photo issues from the exclusive Maglia Magnussoni s.r.l.

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Old 04-12-18, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by solidtyres View Post
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I get reported and bike is confiscated for wrong decals put on in the '70s by a former radiation scientist.
Interesting story behind a nice bike! That fork crown has to be a clue for somebody.
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Old 04-12-18, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudson308 View Post
Interesting story behind a nice bike! That fork crown has to be a clue for somebody.

A quick look at Bob Hovey's Masi site shows a Fischer crown that looks like this one.
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