Old Italian Bike ID request
#1
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Old Italian Bike ID request
My father purchased this bike used in the mid 70's at a garage sale. I'm not going to show the decals, to avoid bias and I think they might be wrong. He had it repainted and a new decal set installed by a shop back then. He rode this bike hard for a lot of years, with minimal maintenance. I refurbished the bike once for a birthday gift, then it was ridden hard again.
Updated:
66.4 shell width, Italian thread
27.0 post
Tubulars
Came with Campy NR crank, derailleurs, bar end shifters, high flange hubs, post, and cable clamps.
Had Universal Model 61 brakes, he changed them to Campy.
It's pretty hard to make out the serial number on the shell, this is my best guess
It came with this stem and bars:
Campy Dropouts
Nervex lugs
Thanks for the help.
Updated:
66.4 shell width, Italian thread
27.0 post
Tubulars
Came with Campy NR crank, derailleurs, bar end shifters, high flange hubs, post, and cable clamps.
Had Universal Model 61 brakes, he changed them to Campy.
It's pretty hard to make out the serial number on the shell, this is my best guess
It came with this stem and bars:
Campy Dropouts
Nervex lugs
Thanks for the help.
Last edited by solidtyres; 04-12-18 at 01:07 PM.
#2
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The big long NERVEX number not a serial. Markings refer to specifications of shell.
The 56 is most likely a size marking. The letter A invites one to speculate about marques beginning with this letter...
When you performed the refurbishment did you discover any marking on steerer?
Combination of shell width and thread quite odd. Makes one wonder if it may have been tapped out from another thread. Alternately, one possibility is that shell has been taken down in width to permit the use of a spindle intended for 68mm.
Have you closely examined sides of seat tube for possible marking?
Is Campag HS locknut marked "ITALY" or other?
Pillar size - 26.8mm slightly surprising. Frame more than nice enough to make one expect a 27.0mm or 27.2mm size. Wonder if pillar correct size. Are binder ears pinched down to touching or near touching? Or possibly seat tube may be something other than SP/SL.
Dropout adjuster screws have been replaced with ones for a shorter and later set of Campag ends.
Date guess: ~1964.
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The big long NERVEX number not a serial. Markings refer to specifications of shell.
The 56 is most likely a size marking. The letter A invites one to speculate about marques beginning with this letter...
When you performed the refurbishment did you discover any marking on steerer?
Combination of shell width and thread quite odd. Makes one wonder if it may have been tapped out from another thread. Alternately, one possibility is that shell has been taken down in width to permit the use of a spindle intended for 68mm.
Have you closely examined sides of seat tube for possible marking?
Is Campag HS locknut marked "ITALY" or other?
Pillar size - 26.8mm slightly surprising. Frame more than nice enough to make one expect a 27.0mm or 27.2mm size. Wonder if pillar correct size. Are binder ears pinched down to touching or near touching? Or possibly seat tube may be something other than SP/SL.
Dropout adjuster screws have been replaced with ones for a shorter and later set of Campag ends.
Date guess: ~1964.
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Last edited by juvela; 04-11-18 at 12:48 PM. Reason: addition
#3
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Back when I refurbished around 1980 (with your assistance, juvela ) we "knew " what kind of bike it was so, no investigation needed. I haven't taken it apart yet, to look at steerer.
The HS locknut has CAMPAGNOLO---PATENT---CAMPAGNOLO--- ITALY---
Frame is 56cm center to top.
I am pretty sure about the BB threading, because he took out the Campy BB and replaced with Phil Wood, and I have an Italian Campy BB in my stash, and don't know where else it would have come from. Looked all over the seat tube, don't see anything. Paint is pretty thick, and lots of touchups.
I replaced the adjusters back then.
Thanks again, glad you chimed in.
The HS locknut has CAMPAGNOLO---PATENT---CAMPAGNOLO--- ITALY---
Frame is 56cm center to top.
I am pretty sure about the BB threading, because he took out the Campy BB and replaced with Phil Wood, and I have an Italian Campy BB in my stash, and don't know where else it would have come from. Looked all over the seat tube, don't see anything. Paint is pretty thick, and lots of touchups.
I replaced the adjusters back then.
Thanks again, glad you chimed in.
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Are there/were there any holes in head tube for head emblem mounting?
Asked about seat tube marking as this is where Cesare Rizzato (Atala, Lygie & Maino brands) places the serial number. The frame's stay to dropout junction is consistent with the way this manufacturer did it - of course it is not unique to them. An Atala identification would fit in with the A56 marking. Wild speculation only.
The frame's NERVEX Professional lug set is much more commonly encountered on bicycles from France and from Britain than on those from Italy so its use would tend to narrow the manufacturer identification possibilities.
Darn it, why can't I recall ID? Gosh, it's only been thirty-eight years!
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Are there/were there any holes in head tube for head emblem mounting?
Asked about seat tube marking as this is where Cesare Rizzato (Atala, Lygie & Maino brands) places the serial number. The frame's stay to dropout junction is consistent with the way this manufacturer did it - of course it is not unique to them. An Atala identification would fit in with the A56 marking. Wild speculation only.
The frame's NERVEX Professional lug set is much more commonly encountered on bicycles from France and from Britain than on those from Italy so its use would tend to narrow the manufacturer identification possibilities.
Darn it, why can't I recall ID? Gosh, it's only been thirty-eight years!
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Rusty "memory" shimmering dimly...
IIRC your dad said he purchased it from some teenagers at a garage sale and that it was a Masi.
Crown is consistent with one Masi used in 1960's. And Masi did build with the NERVEX Professional lug set at one time.
However, chainstays are dimpled so that would make it prior to the round-oval-round chainstays so associated with the marque.
Most likely the Special model.
Predates launch of Campag brakes by five years or so. You are spot on in thinking it would have come originally with Universal brakes.
Noted that fork ends have been opened up a bit.
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Rusty "memory" shimmering dimly...
IIRC your dad said he purchased it from some teenagers at a garage sale and that it was a Masi.
Crown is consistent with one Masi used in 1960's. And Masi did build with the NERVEX Professional lug set at one time.
However, chainstays are dimpled so that would make it prior to the round-oval-round chainstays so associated with the marque.
Most likely the Special model.
Predates launch of Campag brakes by five years or so. You are spot on in thinking it would have come originally with Universal brakes.
Noted that fork ends have been opened up a bit.
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Last edited by juvela; 04-11-18 at 02:16 PM. Reason: addition
#8
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My first vintage bike was a Raleigh International frame and fork bought at a GS for $25. Maybe 1978? I didn't know much, and met juvela to get some parts to build it up. He was gracious and put up with me on a long learning curve. I subsequently got a dumpster Gitane TdF, and he again provided. By that time I was going to the Oakland Police auctions and had a source for vintage junk myself.
Ironically, my dad met juvela independently from me, in a non-bike connection.
I'm really unconnected from people in the biking world, but juvela remains one of my tenuous links.
The subject bike: no headbadge holes
I just saw that the campy seat post is marked 27, it measures at 26.8 (varies a little). And the slot at the adjuster is closed enough at the top that I could imagine it being 27.2 originally.
Ironically, my dad met juvela independently from me, in a non-bike connection.
I'm really unconnected from people in the biking world, but juvela remains one of my tenuous links.
The subject bike: no headbadge holes
I just saw that the campy seat post is marked 27, it measures at 26.8 (varies a little). And the slot at the adjuster is closed enough at the top that I could imagine it being 27.2 originally.
#9
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Fork tips: Dad was also an acquaintance of Phil Wood, and good friend of the guy who owned the two car garage where Phil Wood bike parts started. So, Dad liked Phil Wood parts. Along with the PW BB , this bike also got some PW hubs and pedals. Maybe the "modern" PW hubs had a larger axle?
I don't really care for the PW aesthetics, especially on this bike, and especially the pedals, but there is no arguing about the performance. Flawless with zero maintenance for a long long time.
I don't really care for the PW aesthetics, especially on this bike, and especially the pedals, but there is no arguing about the performance. Flawless with zero maintenance for a long long time.
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For comparison, the forum has a member with a 1965 Special in concours condition. It exhibits the same crown and ends but is constructed with different lugs and shell. Also, its chainstays are late enough to show the round-oval-round pattern.
https://m.bikeforums.net/showthread.p...3947&highlight
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For comparison, the forum has a member with a 1965 Special in concours condition. It exhibits the same crown and ends but is constructed with different lugs and shell. Also, its chainstays are late enough to show the round-oval-round pattern.
https://m.bikeforums.net/showthread.p...3947&highlight
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My father purchased this bike used in the mid 70's at a garage sale. I'm not going to show the decals, to avoid bias and I think they might be wrong. He had it repainted and a new decal set installed by a shop back then. He rode this bike hard for a lot of years, with minimal maintenance. I refurbished the bike once for a birthday gift, then it was ridden hard again.
66.4 shell width, Italian thread
26.8 post
Tubulars
Came with Campy NR crank, derailleurs, bar end shifters, high flange hubs, post, and cable clamps.
Might have had Universal side pull brakes, but if so he changed them to Campy.
It's pretty hard to make out the serial number on the shell, this is my best guess
Thanks for the help.
66.4 shell width, Italian thread
26.8 post
Tubulars
Came with Campy NR crank, derailleurs, bar end shifters, high flange hubs, post, and cable clamps.
Might have had Universal side pull brakes, but if so he changed them to Campy.
It's pretty hard to make out the serial number on the shell, this is my best guess
Thanks for the help.
#12
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Thread Starter
I'll get some better photos this evening.
I also looked at the Universal brakes, that came from him loose, and they are Model 61 centerpull.
I also looked at the Universal brakes, that came from him loose, and they are Model 61 centerpull.
#13
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My first vintage bike was a Raleigh International frame and fork bought at a GS for $25. Maybe 1978? I didn't know much, and met juvela to get some parts to build it up. He was gracious and put up with me on a long learning curve. I subsequently got a dumpster Gitane TdF, and he again provided. By that time I was going to the Oakland Police auctions and had a source for vintage junk myself.
Ironically, my dad met juvela independently from me, in a non-bike connection.
I'm really unconnected from people in the biking world, but juvela remains one of my tenuous links.
(...)
Ironically, my dad met juvela independently from me, in a non-bike connection.
I'm really unconnected from people in the biking world, but juvela remains one of my tenuous links.
(...)
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More photos would help. I'd like to see the seatlug area, for example. You can fuzz out or crop the decals if you're worried about bias. But I don't think that's going to be a problem. Since you've already said the decals might be wrong, we're going to take that into account.
IIRC transfer set is for Gran Criterium, all owner could find at the time.
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That would be noneother than Mister. Donald J. Milberger, formerly of Lawrence Livermore Labs.
Also founder of Bicycle Research Tools.
Trade show recollection -
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/opini...0#.Ws6N7hxUvhI
Obituary -
https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/eas...&pid=137354542
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That would be noneother than Mister. Donald J. Milberger, formerly of Lawrence Livermore Labs.
Also founder of Bicycle Research Tools.
Trade show recollection -
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/opini...0#.Ws6N7hxUvhI
Obituary -
https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/eas...&pid=137354542
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Last edited by juvela; 04-11-18 at 06:28 PM. Reason: fix linque
#17
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Yes, my dad knew him from LLL, and he did the paint job on this bike. Pretty sure he also swapped in the PW BB and rebuilt the wheels with the PW hubs at the same time.
Now I'm guessing: the Phil Wood BB was made for 68mm, and the shell was milled down for that prior to painting.
Now I'm guessing: the Phil Wood BB was made for 68mm, and the shell was milled down for that prior to painting.
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More photos would help. I'd like to see the seatlug area, for example. You can fuzz out or crop the decals if you're worried about bias. But I don't think that's going to be a problem. Since you've already said the decals might be wrong, we're going to take that into account.
Looking forward to seeing the more complete photos. I am intrigued.
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With the Phil Wood bottom bracket cartridge there would be no need to reduce the width of the cycle's bottom bracket shell. The lockrings holding it fast thread into the shell and do not butt up against the shell faces.
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With the Phil Wood bottom bracket cartridge there would be no need to reduce the width of the cycle's bottom bracket shell. The lockrings holding it fast thread into the shell and do not butt up against the shell faces.
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#21
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Here's some more info:
Seat tube C-C is 54.5
Top tube C-C is 54.5
Chainstay C-C is 44
Wheelbase to C of dropout is 100.5
Picture info:
Shell "A 56"
Brake bridge
Rear derailleur, came with bike
Lower headset cup has <C>
The seat cluster lug has an "A" stamp.
Seat post slot is slightly crimped at top with 27.0 post.
The steer tube has "A 56" stamp, and nothing else detectable.
The heasdset lock nut underside says "ITALY" and "25.4 x 24F"
Inside of headtube has two raised bumps corresponding to filled badge holes.
Inside of crown has a step on the lug extension.
Seat tube C-C is 54.5
Top tube C-C is 54.5
Chainstay C-C is 44
Wheelbase to C of dropout is 100.5
Picture info:
Shell "A 56"
Brake bridge
Rear derailleur, came with bike
Lower headset cup has <C>
The seat cluster lug has an "A" stamp.
Seat post slot is slightly crimped at top with 27.0 post.
The steer tube has "A 56" stamp, and nothing else detectable.
The heasdset lock nut underside says "ITALY" and "25.4 x 24F"
Inside of headtube has two raised bumps corresponding to filled badge holes.
Inside of crown has a step on the lug extension.
#22
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As I mentioned , the bike was painted shortly after my dad got it. There was a clear coat put over the new decals, and it reacted a bit and wrinkled them, so they were very fragile. Combined with my dad riding the bike like a bike and not a showpiece, there is a lot of damage to the paint and decals. But we're fairly sure the decals are wrong anyway.
My dad and the bike on the day of a memorial ride for Phil Wood April 18, 2010.
Phil Wood CHP approved pedals
My dad and the bike on the day of a memorial ride for Phil Wood April 18, 2010.
Phil Wood CHP approved pedals
#23
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Thanks so much for all of these excellent detail images!
Somehow I suspect the handsome fisherman knit sweater dad wears in photo issues from the exclusive Maglia Magnussoni s.r.l.
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Thanks so much for all of these excellent detail images!
Somehow I suspect the handsome fisherman knit sweater dad wears in photo issues from the exclusive Maglia Magnussoni s.r.l.
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#24
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Interesting story behind a nice bike! That fork crown has to be a clue for somebody.
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#25
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A quick look at Bob Hovey's Masi site shows a Fischer crown that looks like this one.