NPR on carbon fiber bikes
08-19-18, 08:37 AM
#1
Bike Butcher of Portland
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,639
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4682 Post(s)
Liked 5,800 Times
in
2,284 Posts
NPR on carbon fiber bikes
Heard yesterday morning. Carbon Fiber Bike Failures Spotlight Dangers Of Counterfeits | NPR Illinois
08-19-18, 09:27 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,249
Bikes: 1964 Legnano Roma Olympiade, 1973 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Peugeot PR10, 2002 Specialized Allez, 2007 Specialized Roubaix, 2013 Culprit Croz Blade
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 818 Times
in
421 Posts
I posted this pic in the "Every day photos" thread, but it may be more appropriate here. These poor bikes just fell over and died of carbonitis following yesterday's Cool Breeze Century ride in Ventura. Just fell over and died, without warning. The steel bikes, both of them, just soldiered on. I hope the riders survived, oh the humanity!
08-19-18, 10:37 AM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 2,159
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 913 Post(s)
Liked 515 Times
in
344 Posts
I like my carbon thoroughly encapsulated within the grain structure of fine vintage steels.
Less chance of asplosion.
Less chance of asplosion.
08-19-18, 10:55 AM
#6
Senior Member
The transcript implies that the main if not the only issue is poorly made counterfeit carbon frames, yet the Time frame cited in the first example was apparently not a fake. If it was fake, they do not say state it explicitly, leading me to assume it was genuine. So the general theme and logic of the article - carbon fails because fakes are junk - doesn't make sense.
For the C&V crowd that claims that stiffness doesn't matter, there is really no reason to ride carbon anyway. Carbon is far superior to steel in stiffness to weight, but strength to weight is roughly the same as (better) steels.
For the C&V crowd that claims that stiffness doesn't matter, there is really no reason to ride carbon anyway. Carbon is far superior to steel in stiffness to weight, but strength to weight is roughly the same as (better) steels.
08-19-18, 11:07 AM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: AZ/WA
Posts: 2,403
Bikes: Yes
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 460 Post(s)
Liked 54 Times
in
30 Posts
@Salamandrine I was thinking the same. Time was not clearly mentioned as fake or not. And it says 8 years old French and 5k retail.
Either way I think it points to all the fakes going around being much more dangerous. I know a couple guys on real and fake. I recall one the of the guys saying his was not real and you could tell by decals being hollow vs solid, or something like that.
And I hadn't thought of until now, but I rode a week or so ago with a regular that brought up he saw carbon bikes were having issues and seemed concerned. Probably referring to this article. He is a non C&V guy.
I like stiff bikes and have a couple alu.
Either way I think it points to all the fakes going around being much more dangerous. I know a couple guys on real and fake. I recall one the of the guys saying his was not real and you could tell by decals being hollow vs solid, or something like that.
And I hadn't thought of until now, but I rode a week or so ago with a regular that brought up he saw carbon bikes were having issues and seemed concerned. Probably referring to this article. He is a non C&V guy.
I like stiff bikes and have a couple alu.
08-19-18, 11:11 AM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 546
Bikes: colnago titanio oval master, pinarello treviso es, centurion prestige, tomac ti 26er, lemond buenos aires, mbk 753, vitus 992 and zx1, rocky mountain hammer disc,bd century titanium, specialized venge expert
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked 39 Times
in
20 Posts
I remember reading an article about a Trek fork failure where the rider died from injuries sustained. It apparently was a 10 year old bike. Unfortunately I can't cite the article.
08-19-18, 11:30 AM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18376 Post(s)
Liked 4,511 Times
in
3,353 Posts
Hmmm....
What if I purchase a Counterfeit Steel Colnago?
What if I purchase a Counterfeit Steel Colnago?
08-19-18, 11:51 AM
#10
Bianchi Goddess
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 27,858
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Mentioned: 192 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2930 Post(s)
Liked 2,925 Times
in
1,491 Posts
The transcript implies that the main if not the only issue is poorly made counterfeit carbon frames, yet the Time frame cited in the first example was apparently not a fake. If it was fake, they do not say state it explicitly, leading me to assume it was genuine. So the general theme and logic of the article - carbon fails because fakes are junk - doesn't make sense.
For the C&V crowd that claims that stiffness doesn't matter, there is really no reason to ride carbon anyway. Carbon is far superior to steel in stiffness to weight, but strength to weight is roughly the same as (better) steels.
For the C&V crowd that claims that stiffness doesn't matter, there is really no reason to ride carbon anyway. Carbon is far superior to steel in stiffness to weight, but strength to weight is roughly the same as (better) steels.
Well I also think the fact that you need to more frequently and more carefully inspect your plastic bikes was the closing point. The Time bike seems to have 'sploded because of some previous but unnoticed damage.
I wonder how Specialized, Trek and the others ensure there isn't a midnight shift building bikes on the same line but without the same quality controls.
__________________
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
08-19-18, 11:52 AM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 2,841
Bikes: 2009 Handsome Devil, 1987 Trek 520 Cirrus, 1978 Motobecane Grand Touring, 1987 Nishiki Cresta GT, 1989 Specialized Allez Former bikes; 1986 Miyata Trail Runner, 1979 Miyata 912, 2011 VO Rando, 1999 Cannondale R800, 1986 Schwinn Passage
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 796 Post(s)
Liked 522 Times
in
367 Posts
Yeah I heard that, I rarely listen to NPR these days for sanity reasons but I heard that article and thought you know GP has been talking about carbon catastrophically failing for years And I have seen a few road and track races where bikes just flew apart upon crashing. I am too heavy for Carbon anyway so it doesn't affect me.
08-19-18, 01:52 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,704
Bikes: 82 Medici, 2011 Richard Sachs, 2011 Milwaukee Road
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1949 Post(s)
Liked 2,010 Times
in
1,109 Posts
I know a guy who rides nothing but carbon. He always gets a new frame after any crash. It must be hard to throw $4,000 of perfect looking carbon in the trash because he has a few hanging in his garage. probably have to get an MRI to ascertain damage.
08-19-18, 02:30 PM
#13
Veteran, Pacifist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,328
Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?
Mentioned: 284 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3898 Post(s)
Liked 4,834 Times
in
2,229 Posts
I posted in the other thread too...…….
My 18yo Calfee has 7 years left on a warranty I do not expect to be able to utilize.
3.0 pound frame, 19.2 as build with Campy 10 (mix) and tubular wheels.
Ridden regularly, never babied. Was the primary bike for 4 years riding earthquake cracked roads in the Santa Cruz Mts.
Appropriately pictured at the Carbon River in Mt. Rainier NP.
Give me carbon tubes over bladder pressure molding (? 4 sizes fits all?) any day.
My 18yo Calfee has 7 years left on a warranty I do not expect to be able to utilize.
3.0 pound frame, 19.2 as build with Campy 10 (mix) and tubular wheels.
Ridden regularly, never babied. Was the primary bike for 4 years riding earthquake cracked roads in the Santa Cruz Mts.
Appropriately pictured at the Carbon River in Mt. Rainier NP.
Give me carbon tubes over bladder pressure molding (? 4 sizes fits all?) any day.
__________________
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Last edited by Wildwood; 08-19-18 at 02:38 PM.
08-19-18, 02:37 PM
#14
Senior Member
I have seen carbon fiber frames being laid up in a very reputable factory. After watching the process, I knew I would never ride a carbon bike. There were simply too many chances for something to go wrong in the assembly process. Small pices of carbon fiber were hand placed in a mold. A bump or a slip by the worker meant that there was not going to be as much material in a specific area as specs required. And once the mold had been closed, there would be no way to check for accuracy or resultant strength.
And as mid night shifts at factories? The real question that ought to be asked is how well the factories protect the designs of the molds. Its pretty easy for someone with a thumb drive to made a copy and have an exact copy of the tooling. Why reverse engineer when you can use the source info? This has happened in other product areas. Can't se any reason it couldn't be done with bikes.
And as mid night shifts at factories? The real question that ought to be asked is how well the factories protect the designs of the molds. Its pretty easy for someone with a thumb drive to made a copy and have an exact copy of the tooling. Why reverse engineer when you can use the source info? This has happened in other product areas. Can't se any reason it couldn't be done with bikes.
08-19-18, 02:42 PM
#15
Senior Member
When I was racing juniors as a teenager, I crashed my Masi more times than I can remember. Frame never had any damage worse than a scratch here and there. Replacing the frame after every crash would have been impossible. I suppose any youths racing juniors today would need the support and sponsorship of helicopter parents. Most certainly that was not something I had - the opposite really. I barely had money to replace rims and tires and broken components.
08-19-18, 06:25 PM
#16
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,194
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1565 Post(s)
Liked 1,296 Times
in
866 Posts
I wonder what the numbers say about failure rates of different contemporary frame materials?
Listening to reports of one or a few frames failing seems meaningless in the context of millions of frames being sold. Statistical records have to be analyzed to see if there is actually any trend pointing to any actual problem that bike and insurance companies would want to know about. Bike companies that fail to maintain strict testing and quality control tend to go out of business within a few years as compensation costs spiral.
I know there is a symmetry test that is used on suspect forks after suspected trauma, not sure what can be done to test the frame, other than knock tests and road testing.
Today's frames and forks are built to standards that didn't even exist in the past, seriously over-built in a sense, for better and for worse since bikes built to handle hard use by heavy riders may seem overly stiff for lighter riders.
Since production-bike makers have by now adopted standards for every bike to be able to handle hard use by the heaviest riders, it makes sense that they are designing with wider tires, together with disc brakes, leaving the rider to be able to make larger adjustments to tire pressure as a way to tailor the ride quality of a stiffer frame/fork architecture. Marketing this design approach for it's versatility advantages would seem to make sense as well.
Just as old bikes could harbor internal rust damage, today's bikes can be damaged by things like heat and chemicals, though perhaps very rarely.
For some reason, NPR chooses to obsess over demographic conflict, and I see stories like this one as just their way to help wash it all down with varied sensational news trivia.
Listening to reports of one or a few frames failing seems meaningless in the context of millions of frames being sold. Statistical records have to be analyzed to see if there is actually any trend pointing to any actual problem that bike and insurance companies would want to know about. Bike companies that fail to maintain strict testing and quality control tend to go out of business within a few years as compensation costs spiral.
I know there is a symmetry test that is used on suspect forks after suspected trauma, not sure what can be done to test the frame, other than knock tests and road testing.
Today's frames and forks are built to standards that didn't even exist in the past, seriously over-built in a sense, for better and for worse since bikes built to handle hard use by heavy riders may seem overly stiff for lighter riders.
Since production-bike makers have by now adopted standards for every bike to be able to handle hard use by the heaviest riders, it makes sense that they are designing with wider tires, together with disc brakes, leaving the rider to be able to make larger adjustments to tire pressure as a way to tailor the ride quality of a stiffer frame/fork architecture. Marketing this design approach for it's versatility advantages would seem to make sense as well.
Just as old bikes could harbor internal rust damage, today's bikes can be damaged by things like heat and chemicals, though perhaps very rarely.
For some reason, NPR chooses to obsess over demographic conflict, and I see stories like this one as just their way to help wash it all down with varied sensational news trivia.
Last edited by dddd; 08-19-18 at 06:43 PM.
08-19-18, 06:37 PM
#17
Veteran, Pacifist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,328
Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?
Mentioned: 284 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3898 Post(s)
Liked 4,834 Times
in
2,229 Posts
I defended my carbon frame, but the first carbon fork from ‘99 or ‘98 was detected with a defect at about 1 year, it was a pretty hard year for that fork riding on rough narrow mountain roads. I had the fork painted yellow and it proved crucial in finding the manufacturing defect. It was a steel steerer and the carbon separation occurred at the crown. Was it True Temper??? - I forget.
__________________
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Last edited by Wildwood; 08-19-18 at 06:42 PM.
08-19-18, 06:57 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,829 Times
in
1,995 Posts
Carbon to aluminum or steel bonding is a known problematic connection.
Kind of a sloppy radio segment. Bring back Noah Adams.
Kind of a sloppy radio segment. Bring back Noah Adams.
08-19-18, 07:18 PM
#19
Banned.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,199
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 1,409 Times
in
909 Posts
Ghastly picture. You'd think the moderators would keep the grisly photos out.
I posted this pic in the "Every day photos" thread, but it may be more appropriate here. These poor bikes just fell over and died of carbonitis following yesterday's Cool Breeze Century ride in Ventura. Just fell over and died, without warning. The steel bikes, both of them, just soldiered on. I hope the riders survived, oh the humanity!
08-19-18, 07:36 PM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times
in
336 Posts
I wonder what the numbers say about failure rates of different contemporary frame materials?
Listening to reports of one or a few frames failing seems meaningless in the context of millions of frames being sold. Statistical records have to be analyzed to see if there is actually any trend pointing to any actual problem that bike and insurance companies would want to know about. Bike companies that fail to maintain strict testing and quality control tend to go out of business within a few years as compensation costs spiral.
I know there is a symmetry test that is used on suspect forks after suspected trauma, not sure what can be done to test the frame, other than knock tests and road testing.
Today's frames and forks are built to standards that didn't even exist in the past, seriously over-built in a sense, for better and for worse since bikes built to handle hard use by heavy riders may seem overly stiff for lighter riders.
Since production-bike makers have by now adopted standards for every bike to be able to handle hard use by the heaviest riders, it makes sense that they are designing with wider tires, together with disc brakes, leaving the rider to be able to make larger adjustments to tire pressure as a way to tailor the ride quality of a stiffer frame/fork architecture. Marketing this design approach for it's versatility advantages would seem to make sense as well.
Just as old bikes could harbor internal rust damage, today's bikes can be damaged by things like heat and chemicals, though perhaps very rarely.
For some reason, NPR chooses to obsess over demographic conflict, and I see stories like this one as just their way to help wash it all down with varied sensational news trivia.
Listening to reports of one or a few frames failing seems meaningless in the context of millions of frames being sold. Statistical records have to be analyzed to see if there is actually any trend pointing to any actual problem that bike and insurance companies would want to know about. Bike companies that fail to maintain strict testing and quality control tend to go out of business within a few years as compensation costs spiral.
I know there is a symmetry test that is used on suspect forks after suspected trauma, not sure what can be done to test the frame, other than knock tests and road testing.
Today's frames and forks are built to standards that didn't even exist in the past, seriously over-built in a sense, for better and for worse since bikes built to handle hard use by heavy riders may seem overly stiff for lighter riders.
Since production-bike makers have by now adopted standards for every bike to be able to handle hard use by the heaviest riders, it makes sense that they are designing with wider tires, together with disc brakes, leaving the rider to be able to make larger adjustments to tire pressure as a way to tailor the ride quality of a stiffer frame/fork architecture. Marketing this design approach for it's versatility advantages would seem to make sense as well.
Just as old bikes could harbor internal rust damage, today's bikes can be damaged by things like heat and chemicals, though perhaps very rarely.
For some reason, NPR chooses to obsess over demographic conflict, and I see stories like this one as just their way to help wash it all down with varied sensational news trivia.
08-19-18, 07:49 PM
#21
Veteran, Pacifist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,328
Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?
Mentioned: 284 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3898 Post(s)
Liked 4,834 Times
in
2,229 Posts
Carbon fork!?!. Faceplant Robbie - if you buy the carbon failure theory.
__________________
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
08-19-18, 08:58 PM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,249
Bikes: 1964 Legnano Roma Olympiade, 1973 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Peugeot PR10, 2002 Specialized Allez, 2007 Specialized Roubaix, 2013 Culprit Croz Blade
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 818 Times
in
421 Posts
Hard to listen to NPR these days, as it is so biased, there is not 1 minute of news coverage that doesn't bend into anti-administration verbiage. If it would just report the news, I'd listen, as I used to be a sustainer, etc. I'm just tired of it.
For those that dabble in "modern," I suggest a less anxious steel alternative.... currently waiting on a freehub and cassette.....
For those that dabble in "modern," I suggest a less anxious steel alternative.... currently waiting on a freehub and cassette.....
08-19-18, 09:07 PM
#23
ambulatory senior
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria Il
Posts: 5,998
Bikes: Austro Daimler modified by Gugie! Raleigh Professional and lots of other bikes.
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1955 Post(s)
Liked 3,661 Times
in
1,679 Posts
now i've got a problem. I'm pro carbon and definitely anti this administration. What's a person to do? I guess i'll just listen to the anti admin, and skip the anti carbon stuff. Bottom line, it all comes down to choices. I love my carbon, i love my vintage steel, current administration, not so much.😉
08-19-18, 10:57 PM
#24
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,614
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10964 Post(s)
Liked 7,490 Times
in
4,189 Posts
I posted this pic in the "Every day photos" thread, but it may be more appropriate here. These poor bikes just fell over and died of carbonitis following yesterday's Cool Breeze Century ride in Ventura. Just fell over and died, without warning. The steel bikes, both of them, just soldiered on. I hope the riders survived, oh the humanity!
08-19-18, 11:02 PM
#25
Bike Butcher of Portland
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,639
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4682 Post(s)
Liked 5,800 Times
in
2,284 Posts
I'm guessing @Slightspeed forgot to use the sarcasm font?
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.