Miyata 912 vs Centurion Ironman.
 

I just picked up a 1986 Miyata 912 that is in excellent shape. Everything is stock including all Shimano 600 components.I am waiting for tires and bar tape to arrive before I can ride it. I also have a 1987 Centurion Ironman in very good shape.It is all original with Shimano 105 components. I've been riding it and love it. I'm wondering how the 912 will compare to the Ironman?

sounds like a problem I would like to have, never had the pleasure, yet, of riding an IM but my 79 Miyata 912 rode great.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c1f2936ee9.jpg

Depends on whether you're talking to the Miyata cult or the Centurion cult. I'm a member of neither.

My preference would be the 912, as I like the added stiffness of the STB tubeset. There's not a not to distinguish between the components, though the New 105 brakeset on the Ironman should have a lighter feel, better modulation and aero cable routing.

I am a member of both, and all things being equal for any given model year they overlapped ('86-'89) I'd pick the 914. Sorry, Robbie.

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My preference would be the Ironman. With better tubing for all day riding. However a better and fairer comparison would be the Master Ironman with 600 components and slightly different frame compared to the expert which has 105.

I was referring to the Master. Both the Miyata and IM Master are 600-level bikes.

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Well this is a good sign for my incoming Ironman. I tend to prefer a slightly less stiff frame. I have never ridden a Miyata.

I have both as well. It depends on what the rider likes. I like a hint of spring in my frames. I would give a slight edge to the IM because of that. The Miyata STB makes for a stiff frame. I have a 52 Team Miyata also. The Stiffness/Launch factor is high with that frame.

I was under the impression that Expert and Master used the exact same frame.

Well the tubing decals are the same (Tange 1). However, the frames are slightly different perhaps not enough to make a difference to most.

The tubing is the same, the weights are basically the same, the geometry is basically the same. Strip the paint off of an Expert and Master from 88, 89, you can't tell them apart.

1985, 1986 and 1987 Master shared a fork.
1988, 1989 and 1987 Expert shared a fork.

Scratch one, you get the other.

There are very subtle differences that are not consistent to models or years that people have noticed. It's more about the 80's than it is about any intentional differences.

Centurion specifically intended the frames to the same, with the only differences being the components. Other marques were doing the same thing, just differentiating with components.

Some just seem to ride different. Unless one uses identical components, down to the cable ends, and then tests them across a representative sampling, with everything the same, even the tire PSI, just no way to know.

Anecdotal evidence is out there that some difference exist. That's certainly true, but I'm just not convinced they are that different. I have an '87 Master and an '88 Master. I swear they are different bikes, as they just feel different.

Maybe it's the color.

You will be.

Keep that impression. It's closer to the truth than anything we've dug up.

I've never seen anyone with a Miyata 912 tattoo.

I can tell them apart. Bottom bracket shell, lugs, chain stays and seat bolt binder are different.

True, but my point is you may well find those differences on bikes of the same model and year.

Those were open market parts, bought and shipped to the factory to produce the frames. What showed up was used, generally with consistency, but I genuinely believe there was no intention to differentiate the frames.

i miss the 912 that i had. gave a friend who needed some wheels a nice deal, and it got stolen a couple months later. that was a really nice riding bike.

I've had at least 3 masters and at minimum 4 experts and they have been consistent in their exact differences.
My theory is the Masters made in one factory and the Experts in another factory. Reportedly Miyata, panasonic etc were made at the same factory so,I theorize maybe ONE of the Ironman frames. The world may never know for sure and only 2 or 3 care.

Scott Molina the winningest triathlete of all time raced on a Miyata 912 for a time. He won the biggest triathlon in the world the Ironman world championship in Hawaii on a Miyata. However it was a Miyata Carbon 5000.

Here's a "thttps://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...632e7e6a40.jpg
riathlon" advertisement featuring former world champion Scott Molina, circa 1988.

Using the same frame to create multiple models by varying the component spec and cosmetics was a common practice among mass market brands. It allowed companies to hit different price points, while striking a balance between reduced consumer costs and increased profits.

​​​​​​​The classic example of doubling up on a frame is the Peugeot AO8 and UO8. Adding a few brazed-on fittings created the AE8 and UE8, so you could even argue that the basic boom era Peugeot frame design performed quadruple duty.

I have been collecting Centurion serial numbers for over a decade and have well over one hundred documented samples of the Ironman variants alone. All the Experts and Masters I've seen have used the same serial number format, indicating that they come from the same factory. The only Ironmen models I've seen that were manufactured by different sources are some first year Ironman and the Ironman Carbon.

Regarding the relationship between Miyata and M-a-t-s-u-s-h-i-t-a (the manufacturer of the Panasonic brand bicycles), the latter was the largest shareholder of Miyata stock for almost fifty years but both companies maintained independent manufacturing facilities.

Very cool to know.

You'll have to find out how they ride. Similar/same tires across both would make for a good comparison as it seems lately that tires on any of my bikes can make or break the ride quality and thus the man-and-machine connection. I've had two touring Miyatas and they are excellent rides. The 912 was more or less, from what I understood in their literature, their race bikes, but with a tuxedo on. I'd like to own a race-frame Miyata some day.

I was thinking the same thing. Failed to say it, but it would make sense, and be easy enough to do.

I owned a 63cm '87 912 for many years and rode it with a few different setups. Rode it with all 600 tricolor components and original wheels, rode it with some cockpit changes and 9sp Ultegra STI, and rode it with new wheels plus compact crank and STIs. I was always trying to refine the fit to allow me to use it more frequently. Loved the bike, but it was just a couple cm too small, based on the geometry used(the top tube sloped downward towards the stem).
It was comfortable as can be once I got the fit right, but it was always going to be a bike that was too small.
Really nicely made and plenty stiff but still comfortable.


I have refurbished an 87 Ironman, an 89 Ironman, and own an '89 frame that was made by the same contractor making Ironman frames at that time with the same geometry. They are nice, but not nearly as well finished as my '87 Miyata 912. The brazed points on the fork and rear dropout arent nearly as nicely finished as on the 912 and are finished in a faster/more economical fashion. That doesnt mean anything when it comes to performance, mind you.



- Miyata 912 internal routed brake cable looks nicer.
- The brazed points on both dropouts are nicer on the 912.
- The 912 fork has a visible crown which is lugged and nicer looking than the Ironman unicrown forks.
- Lugs on the 912 are finished nicer than on either Ironman I refurbished.
- 912 Splined tubing is neat from a historical perspective since it wasnt used by many brands, its more unique.

- I like Ironman seat stay caps more as they arent spoon shaped like the 912. Spoon caps are neat, but not my favorite.
- Ironman paint schemes are iconic. legendary. This is one area where few bikes in the price range can match the Ironman.


I would go 912 every day of the week, and just quietly drool over the purple haze and smoke on the water Ironman paint.

Can you imagine what an Ironman would have been by '97? Banned!
(I'm thinking the "97" is a typo....)

I have seen a 912, at a brewery in Kinston, NC, and it was nice, as was the owner.

I think she liked my Ironman, too.