Imagining the evolution of discontinued product lines
10-18-18, 01:06 PM
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ABS requires a lot of sustained force, more than shifting. So it takes more power. I bet you’ll see it on e-bikes. I don’t think so on human power.
I like to joke about Magna Ride in mountain bikes but I really don’t see it happening for the same reason. There are now a few companies making real time adjusting shock absorbers. That’s got to take a lot less power than Magna Ride but it’s got a lot more moving parts.
I like to joke about Magna Ride in mountain bikes but I really don’t see it happening for the same reason. There are now a few companies making real time adjusting shock absorbers. That’s got to take a lot less power than Magna Ride but it’s got a lot more moving parts.
10-18-18, 01:11 PM
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@RobbieTunes, you know about the NuVinci hub, right? It has CVT. We have them on a good fraction of the Citi Bike fleet here in NYC. I love the way it works, but there are downsides. One is weight. It's insanely heavy. Another is long term reliability. I hear they're not that durable, but I think the jury is still out on that. Another problem is that it seems to lose the top range of ratios. That may be a particular way the bike is built or maintained, so I won't blame NuVinci for that; it may be Citi Bike's fault. Another huge problem is cost.
Anyway, like IGH, I don't see CVT hubs replacing derailleurs, because derailleurs are cheaper and much lighter.
@seypat, why do you foresee fewer cogs in the back? I just put an 11-speed shifter and cassette on my tandem. I might be imagining things, but it seems having the cogs close together makes shifting even quicker and preciser. Or maybe it's other improvements that offer that advantage.
Anyway, like IGH, I don't see CVT hubs replacing derailleurs, because derailleurs are cheaper and much lighter.
@seypat, why do you foresee fewer cogs in the back? I just put an 11-speed shifter and cassette on my tandem. I might be imagining things, but it seems having the cogs close together makes shifting even quicker and preciser. Or maybe it's other improvements that offer that advantage.
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10-18-18, 01:43 PM
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Not C & V related, but,........
Since we already have some wireless electronics on the bike...and we evidently have disc brakes that require very little physical pressure needed,....
Why can't the shifters and brake levers be eliminated completely? Replace them with handlebars embedded with sensory pads or something similar. Maybe a thumb pad for braking and a couple of finger pads for shifting? Maybe a strip that runs the entire length of the bar that controls both? Maybe a "smart" handlebar. The technology is there. It will come in the future.
Since we already have some wireless electronics on the bike...and we evidently have disc brakes that require very little physical pressure needed,....
Why can't the shifters and brake levers be eliminated completely? Replace them with handlebars embedded with sensory pads or something similar. Maybe a thumb pad for braking and a couple of finger pads for shifting? Maybe a strip that runs the entire length of the bar that controls both? Maybe a "smart" handlebar. The technology is there. It will come in the future.
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10-18-18, 08:11 PM
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@RobbieTunes, you know about the NuVinci hub, right? It has CVT. We have them on a good fraction of the Citi Bike fleet here in NYC. I love the way it works, but there are downsides. One is weight. It's insanely heavy. Another is long term reliability. I hear they're not that durable, but I think the jury is still out on that. Another problem is that it seems to lose the top range of ratios. That may be a particular way the bike is built or maintained, so I won't blame NuVinci for that; it may be Citi Bike's fault. Another huge problem is cost.
Anyway, like IGH, I don't see CVT hubs replacing derailleurs, because derailleurs are cheaper and much lighter.
@seypat, why do you foresee fewer cogs in the back? I just put an 11-speed shifter and cassette on my tandem. I might be imagining things, but it seems having the cogs close together makes shifting even quicker and preciser. Or maybe it's other improvements that offer that advantage.
Anyway, like IGH, I don't see CVT hubs replacing derailleurs, because derailleurs are cheaper and much lighter.
@seypat, why do you foresee fewer cogs in the back? I just put an 11-speed shifter and cassette on my tandem. I might be imagining things, but it seems having the cogs close together makes shifting even quicker and preciser. Or maybe it's other improvements that offer that advantage.
10-18-18, 10:59 PM
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I do not miss my 3x8. I won't be buying another.
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10-19-18, 06:03 AM
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Think forward, Tom.
Assume improvement.
There is an entire genre of SF fiction that is based on this premise, an extension of today's tech, with assumed improvements. Jules Verne was not bothered by the then-current obstacles.
Assume improvement.
There is an entire genre of SF fiction that is based on this premise, an extension of today's tech, with assumed improvements. Jules Verne was not bothered by the then-current obstacles.
@RobbieTunes, you know about the NuVinci hub, right? It has CVT. We have them on a good fraction of the Citi Bike fleet here in NYC. I love the way it works, but there are downsides. One is weight. It's insanely heavy. Another is long term reliability. I hear they're not that durable, but I think the jury is still out on that. Another problem is that it seems to lose the top range of ratios. That may be a particular way the bike is built or maintained, so I won't blame NuVinci for that; it may be Citi Bike's fault. Another huge problem is cost.
Anyway, like IGH, I don't see CVT hubs replacing derailleurs, because derailleurs are cheaper and much lighter.
@seypat, why do you foresee fewer cogs in the back? I just put an 11-speed shifter and cassette on my tandem. I might be imagining things, but it seems having the cogs close together makes shifting even quicker and preciser. Or maybe it's other improvements that offer that advantage.
Anyway, like IGH, I don't see CVT hubs replacing derailleurs, because derailleurs are cheaper and much lighter.
@seypat, why do you foresee fewer cogs in the back? I just put an 11-speed shifter and cassette on my tandem. I might be imagining things, but it seems having the cogs close together makes shifting even quicker and preciser. Or maybe it's other improvements that offer that advantage.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 10-19-18 at 06:07 AM.
10-19-18, 06:05 AM
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I'm not sure anyone made a high end 3x8. I've sure never seen one.
Even the 3x9 DA had drawbacks, namely the insanely expensive middle ring. The Racing T was the nicest looking, and works very nicely.
My money, which will be with my heirs when it finally happens, is on CVT on belt drives, likely involving electrons...or direct drive electric motors.
Mainly because my imagination can assume the necessary improvements.
Even the 3x9 DA had drawbacks, namely the insanely expensive middle ring. The Racing T was the nicest looking, and works very nicely.
My money, which will be with my heirs when it finally happens, is on CVT on belt drives, likely involving electrons...or direct drive electric motors.
Mainly because my imagination can assume the necessary improvements.
10-19-18, 09:28 AM
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@seypat, I converted my tandem from 3x7 to 3x11. Interestingly, the front derailleur is friction-shifted and works like a champ. Your prediction may prove to be true.
But it's funny how the thread has turned to looking in the future in not quite the way it started. I do like the idea of saying hypothetically Simplex was right about plastic components or that friction shifting proved to be better than indexed.
As for wireless shifting, I would welcome the idea if it can be made more reliable than bluetooth. I get interference with my bluetooth headset in Manhattan, and it might be congestion in the 2.4 GHz band, it might be spurious emissions, and it might be reflections from buildings. It might be a combination of these things. I don't want shifting to be prey to these factors. And really, I don't know what's wrong with wiring. It's not difficult or expensive. Wireless headphones are good because cords get tangled, but that isn't the case when a cable goes from a shifter to a derailleur.
But it's funny how the thread has turned to looking in the future in not quite the way it started. I do like the idea of saying hypothetically Simplex was right about plastic components or that friction shifting proved to be better than indexed.
As for wireless shifting, I would welcome the idea if it can be made more reliable than bluetooth. I get interference with my bluetooth headset in Manhattan, and it might be congestion in the 2.4 GHz band, it might be spurious emissions, and it might be reflections from buildings. It might be a combination of these things. I don't want shifting to be prey to these factors. And really, I don't know what's wrong with wiring. It's not difficult or expensive. Wireless headphones are good because cords get tangled, but that isn't the case when a cable goes from a shifter to a derailleur.
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10-19-18, 11:17 AM
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noglider, think about this: With a little BB evolution, you could have 4x11 on that tandum using your current drivetrain.
Back to the original topic. I wished the original Suntour was still around. But what I wish even more is that all of the french companies would have combined to become the French version of Shimano.
Back to the original topic. I wished the original Suntour was still around. But what I wish even more is that all of the french companies would have combined to become the French version of Shimano.
10-19-18, 11:19 AM
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@seypat. I get interference with my bluetooth headset in Manhattan,
from one of my favorite songs sung by Dianne Warren...
The whole thread is kind of hypothetical. Funny how much of bike technology hasn't moved as far as its lighting.
I have a friend who bought one of those SpeedX or something frames, integrates the head tube/stem/steerer/bars, and the Di2 shifting, and some of the cargo.
When the role of the bike evolves, perchance a lot of the bike systems will evolve as well.
10-19-18, 11:24 AM
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"First we take Manhattan....."
from one of my favorite songs sung by Dianne Warren...
The whole thread is kind of hypothetical. Funny how much of bike technology hasn't moved as far as its lighting.
I have a friend who bought one of those SpeedX or something frames, integrates the head tube/stem/steerer/bars, and the Di2 shifting, and some of the cargo.
When the role of the bike evolves, perchance a lot of the bike systems will evolve as well.
from one of my favorite songs sung by Dianne Warren...
The whole thread is kind of hypothetical. Funny how much of bike technology hasn't moved as far as its lighting.
I have a friend who bought one of those SpeedX or something frames, integrates the head tube/stem/steerer/bars, and the Di2 shifting, and some of the cargo.
When the role of the bike evolves, perchance a lot of the bike systems will evolve as well.
Digital technology advances at the speed of Moore's Law. Nothing else does. Bikes advance more slowly than even cars because the engine can't be improved.
I'm not sure what kind of evolution you're imagining when you talk about the role of bikes. Remember, I'm in NYC where deliveries by bike have been common since the invention of the bike. Sure I see new trends, but not many breakthroughs. I see parents driving cargo bikes carrying several kids, sometimes a lot older than toddlers. All of this is heartwarming, but it's not as new as it looks. Bike culture does interest me.
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10-19-18, 11:46 AM
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I’m sure that’s the reason Campagnolo has stayed with friction front shifting all along. Triple front derailleurs with indexing are crap. Five adjustments and if you get it right you achieve rubbing in only a third of the gears. Doubles are a lot simpler and more forgiving but still have some of the same.
10-19-18, 12:03 PM
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I’m sure that’s the reason Campagnolo has stayed with friction front shifting all along. Triple front derailleurs with indexing are crap. Five adjustments and if you get it right you achieve rubbing in only a third of the gears. Doubles are a lot simpler and more forgiving but still have some of the same.
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10-19-18, 02:27 PM
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I did not know that Mavic attempted an electronic group in 1993. I wonder where it would be now? Anyone try it back in the day?
https://velobase.com/ViewGroup.aspx?G...9-b76c5142c5c5
https://velobase.com/ViewGroup.aspx?G...9-b76c5142c5c5
10-19-18, 03:42 PM
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Di2 dates to 2001 though it was marketed to make easy bikes easier and didn't come to roadies til 2009
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10-19-18, 04:21 PM
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I wish for the continued evolution of the down tube shifter.
Shimano has its pretty and efficient 6sp to 10sp Dura Ace. Would be nice to see 11 and the inevitable 12.
Campagnolo failed miserably in regards to indexing, but Bike Forums ingenuity has it working with converted bar ends, at least for 10sp; 11 and 12 should be possible.
What say you, Shimano? Campagnolo?
Shimano has its pretty and efficient 6sp to 10sp Dura Ace. Would be nice to see 11 and the inevitable 12.
Campagnolo failed miserably in regards to indexing, but Bike Forums ingenuity has it working with converted bar ends, at least for 10sp; 11 and 12 should be possible.
What say you, Shimano? Campagnolo?
for an evolutionary fork...Gevenalle
10-19-18, 06:56 PM
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You mean Jennifer Warnes? Yes, it's a great song.
Digital technology advances at the speed of Moore's Law. Nothing else does. Bikes advance more slowly than even cars because the engine can't be improved.
I'm not sure what kind of evolution you're imagining when you talk about the role of bikes. Remember, I'm in NYC where deliveries by bike have been common since the invention of the bike. Sure I see new trends, but not many breakthroughs. I see parents driving cargo bikes carrying several kids, sometimes a lot older than toddlers. All of this is heartwarming, but it's not as new as it looks. Bike culture does interest me.
Digital technology advances at the speed of Moore's Law. Nothing else does. Bikes advance more slowly than even cars because the engine can't be improved.
I'm not sure what kind of evolution you're imagining when you talk about the role of bikes. Remember, I'm in NYC where deliveries by bike have been common since the invention of the bike. Sure I see new trends, but not many breakthroughs. I see parents driving cargo bikes carrying several kids, sometimes a lot older than toddlers. All of this is heartwarming, but it's not as new as it looks. Bike culture does interest me.
10-19-18, 07:10 PM
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When I mentioned the role of bikes, I meant a little different than literal interpretations and arguments about the history of bike usage since the dawn of time.
It's a little tiring, to be simple about it, so I'll bow out of this thread. I'm definitely not on the same page here.
10-19-18, 07:44 PM
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noglider, think about this: With a little BB evolution, you could have 4x11 on that tandum using your current drivetrain.
Back to the original topic. I wished the original Suntour was still around. But what I wish even more is that all of the french companies would have combined to become the French version of Shimano.
Back to the original topic. I wished the original Suntour was still around. But what I wish even more is that all of the french companies would have combined to become the French version of Shimano.
The original SunTour was certainly a cool, typically conservative Japanese company. I see a lot of the Gran Compe brand lives on but for some odd reason, distribution doesn’t seem too widespread in the USA. Part of my concept for the original question was imagining the design aesthetics of the more advanced products. A return to more faceted, more angular, yet polished or anodized in novel ways - there is room for less origami cookie cutter-ness.
The 90’s mountain bike boom was an exciting time that sort of fizzled for the many USA based, CNC component makers. There were many ideas being tried out. They were exciting times.
I remember the Suntour/WTB branded “Grease Guard” products - very cool that the manufacturers were thinking about our ongoing maintenence and didn’t care that we didn’t need to purchase more of their product as often.
I follow with interest the chain waxing threads and wonder about chain longevity, mechanical efficiency and quietness. I do like the idea of 3x drivetrains still. Some start-up should jump on this and reintroduce a 3x road drivetrain perhaps with a twist such as having a Gates belt drive - perhaps the place to put the variable sheave is on the cranks, not the rear cog. Lots of ideas to think about.
10-19-18, 10:22 PM
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I like having a triple on the front- but really, I pretty much only use it as a bail out. Even then, it's only the lowest gears- and usually I make that decision to go to the granny after I'm in the big cog and middle ring. I'd guess I only use 3 gears 99% of the time I'm on the granny- which is 1% of the time.
I do have a set of 10 speed triple brifters but I've had to do some thinking about how I'd use the front chainring- I don't want to use front indexing...
I do have a set of 10 speed triple brifters but I've had to do some thinking about how I'd use the front chainring- I don't want to use front indexing...
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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
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