“Racy” sport tourers
#26
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A classic sport(s) tourer with 41mm stays? Boy thats a needle in a needle stack- really tough to find.
Most everything posted here is more relaxed geometry and/or longer stays.
My '87 Miyata 912 is 73deg HTA and STA, could take fenders, had 415mm stays, and had 2 bottle bosses. It couldnt handle more than a Conti GP 25mm tire that inflated to 26.5mm though.
Interesting geometry to have such short stays and such generous tire clearance.
I certainly wouldnt consider a 912 a sport(s) tourer, even if it could have fit 28mm tires, but i guess its all semantics and perspective.
Most everything posted here is more relaxed geometry and/or longer stays.
My '87 Miyata 912 is 73deg HTA and STA, could take fenders, had 415mm stays, and had 2 bottle bosses. It couldnt handle more than a Conti GP 25mm tire that inflated to 26.5mm though.
Interesting geometry to have such short stays and such generous tire clearance.
I certainly wouldnt consider a 912 a sport(s) tourer, even if it could have fit 28mm tires, but i guess its all semantics and perspective.
The other frame I had that fits this description would be an RRB production model.
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I can't find a good picture of one, but would an early 80s Japanese Raleigh Super Course count?
Found a pic:
I'm still kicking myself for letting one of these get away from me on the LA Craigslist.
Found a pic:
I'm still kicking myself for letting one of these get away from me on the LA Craigslist.
Last edited by Piff; 01-17-19 at 02:47 PM.
#28
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A classic sport(s) tourer with 41mm stays? Boy thats a needle in a needle stack- really tough to find.
Most everything posted here is more relaxed geometry and/or longer stays.
My '87 Miyata 912 is 73deg HTA and STA, could take fenders, had 415mm stays, and had 2 bottle bosses. It couldnt handle more than a Conti GP 25mm tire that inflated to 26.5mm though.
Interesting geometry to have such short stays and such generous tire clearance.
I certainly wouldnt consider a 912 a sport(s) tourer, even if it could have fit 28mm tires, but i guess its all semantics and perspective.
Most everything posted here is more relaxed geometry and/or longer stays.
My '87 Miyata 912 is 73deg HTA and STA, could take fenders, had 415mm stays, and had 2 bottle bosses. It couldnt handle more than a Conti GP 25mm tire that inflated to 26.5mm though.
Interesting geometry to have such short stays and such generous tire clearance.
I certainly wouldnt consider a 912 a sport(s) tourer, even if it could have fit 28mm tires, but i guess its all semantics and perspective.
Last edited by Dfrost; 01-17-19 at 03:40 PM.
#29
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The late 70's Raleigh Super Course fits the bill. Raleigh switched over to 700C wheels and tightened up the geometry. It's definitely on the sport side of the sport tourers.
#30
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I just realized the frame i built in a class last winter is pretty much as close as i would get to whats described in the first post.
- 73degree HTA and STA.
- 2 bottle cages
- fender mounts
- 430mm stays
- 104cm wheelbase on a 65cm frame.
- 30mm tire on now and could be a 32 if I wanted.
but its not c&v as its modern OS Columbus Zona steel.
- 73degree HTA and STA.
- 2 bottle cages
- fender mounts
- 430mm stays
- 104cm wheelbase on a 65cm frame.
- 30mm tire on now and could be a 32 if I wanted.
but its not c&v as its modern OS Columbus Zona steel.
#31
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Thread Starter
I just realized the frame i built in a class last winter is pretty much as close as i would get to whats described in the first post.
- 73degree HTA and STA.
- 2 bottle cages
- fender mounts
- 430mm stays
- 104cm wheelbase on a 65cm frame.
- 30mm tire on now and could be a 32 if I wanted.
but its not c&v as its modern OS Columbus Zona steel.
- 73degree HTA and STA.
- 2 bottle cages
- fender mounts
- 430mm stays
- 104cm wheelbase on a 65cm frame.
- 30mm tire on now and could be a 32 if I wanted.
but its not c&v as its modern OS Columbus Zona steel.
#32
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I had a 1985 Ross Signature 294S as well. Sold it, but it was a fantastic bike. Chain stays measured 425mm from BB to axle, which means I could have had a 430-435mm or so length had I set the wheels further aft. Given the chain stay length, it is on the sportier side of sports tourers, IMO. For other fast tourers/sports tourers, as others have mentioned, the early '80s Trek 400/500/600 or 410/510/610/710 make great rides. Anything from about 430-440mm is the sweet spot that allows fender clearance, larger tire clearance, a more supple/forgiving ride, while not have the stays be too long so as to experience the rear axle being "behind" the BB/crankset when pedaling hard (and/or quickly) out of the saddle when climbing or accelerating. MY '74 Paramount P15 is at 435mm or so and that's perfect. I could slide it back more but I like the stance and proportion with the axles further forward. 35mm tires fit well.
If you want a full tourer that behaves like a race bike in and out of the saddle, without a racy ride or handling, the '80s Cannondale ST touring bikes are 100% the ticket. It's crazy how competent they are, and mine is a 25" / 63.5cm size. I've put plenty of power into mine in a number of gears, and the power is simply transferred efficiently to the rear. It was raining today, so I had my '90 ST400 out on rain/winter/fender commuter duty and took the very long way home after a long day at work. Nearly uninterrupted city riding in my 9-ish mile route, allowing me to attain and hold a good cadence in a high gear. Felt amazing!
If you want a full tourer that behaves like a race bike in and out of the saddle, without a racy ride or handling, the '80s Cannondale ST touring bikes are 100% the ticket. It's crazy how competent they are, and mine is a 25" / 63.5cm size. I've put plenty of power into mine in a number of gears, and the power is simply transferred efficiently to the rear. It was raining today, so I had my '90 ST400 out on rain/winter/fender commuter duty and took the very long way home after a long day at work. Nearly uninterrupted city riding in my 9-ish mile route, allowing me to attain and hold a good cadence in a high gear. Felt amazing!
#33
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If you want a full tourer that behaves like a race bike in and out of the saddle, without a racy ride or handling, the '80s Cannondale ST touring bikes are 100% the ticket. It's crazy how competent they are, and mine is a 25" / 63.5cm size. I've put plenty of power into mine in a number of gears, and the power is simply transferred efficiently to the rear. It was raining today, so I had my '90 ST400 out on rain/winter/fender commuter duty and took the very long way home after a long day at work. Nearly uninterrupted city riding in my 9-ish mile route, allowing me to attain and hold a good cadence in a high gear. Felt amazing!
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#34
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This thread needs Raleigh Internationals.
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1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
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I've settled in well with a 1987 Trek 520 Cirrus. Good year.
Received as a frameset (main tubes R531) and built up but nothing close to factory stock.
Suntour Cyclone triple, bar ends, Shimano Megarange 7 speed, DC cantilevers / Gran Compe aero levers and Suntour Powerhangers. 700x32c w/ Sunshine hubs. Racked and fendered.
Received as a frameset (main tubes R531) and built up but nothing close to factory stock.
Suntour Cyclone triple, bar ends, Shimano Megarange 7 speed, DC cantilevers / Gran Compe aero levers and Suntour Powerhangers. 700x32c w/ Sunshine hubs. Racked and fendered.
#36
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Dutifully reporting!
I meant to do a build + evolution thread earlier, and I still might but, my originally-planned-to-be-winter/rain/touring ST was delayed for several reasons, but is now far along in it's evolution with larger tires and racks mounted being the only things to max it out. As is stands, it's no less amazing. All the gears for going slow and up walls (28-36), along with all the gears to fly down them (53-11). And properly strong brakes to haul it all down whatever the gradient. This is a bike that is not to be outdone.
I meant to do a build + evolution thread earlier, and I still might but, my originally-planned-to-be-winter/rain/touring ST was delayed for several reasons, but is now far along in it's evolution with larger tires and racks mounted being the only things to max it out. As is stands, it's no less amazing. All the gears for going slow and up walls (28-36), along with all the gears to fly down them (53-11). And properly strong brakes to haul it all down whatever the gradient. This is a bike that is not to be outdone.
#37
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Thread Starter
I've settled in well with a 1987 Trek 520 Cirrus. Good year.
Received as a frameset (main tubes R531) and built up but nothing close to factory stock.
Suntour Cyclone triple, bar ends, Shimano Megarange 7 speed, DC cantilevers / Gran Compe aero levers and Suntour Powerhangers. 700x32c w/ Sunshine hubs. Racked and fendered.
Received as a frameset (main tubes R531) and built up but nothing close to factory stock.
Suntour Cyclone triple, bar ends, Shimano Megarange 7 speed, DC cantilevers / Gran Compe aero levers and Suntour Powerhangers. 700x32c w/ Sunshine hubs. Racked and fendered.
#40
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Some real beautiful bikes pictured in this thread. Top 506, I absolutely love that red Miyata 710!. I want one of these racy sport tour bikes, 53/54 cm. My latest 2 wheeled lust machine.
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Lately, I'm riding these 3 a lot. More recent, but surprisingly they check off many of your 6 attributes:
Gary Fisher Montare. 39.4 chainstay & rear axle to crank center, generous clearance, fender eyelets, Unicrown fork? Dual cage mts.
Torelli Gran Sasso. 40.6 chainstay, Clearance? I run 25's but once fit 28's without fenders, fender eyelets, sloping fork crown, dual cage mts.
Schwinn Moab. 41.9 chainstay, generous clearance, fender eyelets rear only, Unicrown fork?, dual cage mts. But, none have shifter studs. Don
Edit: I have some fenders for the Montare, still collecting hardware. Also, just realized I could have posted these in the "oversize tubing" thread.
Gary Fisher Montare. 39.4 chainstay & rear axle to crank center, generous clearance, fender eyelets, Unicrown fork? Dual cage mts.
Torelli Gran Sasso. 40.6 chainstay, Clearance? I run 25's but once fit 28's without fenders, fender eyelets, sloping fork crown, dual cage mts.
Schwinn Moab. 41.9 chainstay, generous clearance, fender eyelets rear only, Unicrown fork?, dual cage mts. But, none have shifter studs. Don
Edit: I have some fenders for the Montare, still collecting hardware. Also, just realized I could have posted these in the "oversize tubing" thread.
Last edited by ollo_ollo; 01-18-19 at 12:49 PM. Reason: add to comment
#42
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I had a 1985 Ross Signature 294S as well. Sold it, but it was a fantastic bike. Chain stays measured 425mm from BB to axle, which means I could have had a 430-435mm or so length had I set the wheels further aft. Given the chain stay length, it is on the sportier side of sports tourers, IMO. For other fast tourers/sports tourers, as others have mentioned, the early '80s Trek 400/500/600 or 410/510/610/710 make great rides. Anything from about 430-440mm is the sweet spot that allows fender clearance, larger tire clearance, a more supple/forgiving ride, while not have the stays be too long so as to experience the rear axle being "behind" the BB/crankset when pedaling hard (and/or quickly) out of the saddle when climbing or accelerating. MY '74 Paramount P15 is at 435mm or so and that's perfect. I could slide it back more but I like the stance and proportion with the axles further forward. 35mm tires fit well.
If you want a full tourer that behaves like a race bike in and out of the saddle, without a racy ride or handling, the '80s Cannondale ST touring bikes are 100% the ticket. It's crazy how competent they are, and mine is a 25" / 63.5cm size. I've put plenty of power into mine in a number of gears, and the power is simply transferred efficiently to the rear. It was raining today, so I had my '90 ST400 out on rain/winter/fender commuter duty and took the very long way home after a long day at work. Nearly uninterrupted city riding in my 9-ish mile route, allowing me to attain and hold a good cadence in a high gear. Felt amazing!
If you want a full tourer that behaves like a race bike in and out of the saddle, without a racy ride or handling, the '80s Cannondale ST touring bikes are 100% the ticket. It's crazy how competent they are, and mine is a 25" / 63.5cm size. I've put plenty of power into mine in a number of gears, and the power is simply transferred efficiently to the rear. It was raining today, so I had my '90 ST400 out on rain/winter/fender commuter duty and took the very long way home after a long day at work. Nearly uninterrupted city riding in my 9-ish mile route, allowing me to attain and hold a good cadence in a high gear. Felt amazing!
I see yours has cantis whereas the ones Dr C showed all have sidepulls. Different models? Different years? Are certain years more desirable? And how are they measured? It always seems like the frames are deceptively large, ie bigger than it would appear from a glance at the head tube. Maybe that’s just an OS tubing illusion?
#43
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Intriguing report. I have never ridden a Cannondale and don’t know much about them.
I see yours has cantis whereas the ones Dr C showed all have sidepulls. Different models? Different years? Are certain years more desirable? And how are they measured? It always seems like the frames are deceptively large, ie bigger than it would appear from a glance at the head tube. Maybe that’s just an OS tubing illusion?
We are an enthusiastic bunch for these old aluminum (many with steel forks as standard spec) machines. Cannondale went from selling cycling-related soft goods and a pull-behind bike trailer, to that plus a touring bike in 1983. They added a race model shortly after. From 1983 to 1990, you'll find them with very clean, minimal graphics. Around 1992/3 is when they changed to a newer and more modern look--I mean, it's all part of the evolution, but classic/vintage Cannondale is largely before those years, and really for some, 1983-1988 when their look was 100% conventional.
The ST that debuted in 1983 was fully outfitted, meaning, long chainstays (46cm), three bottle cage bosses, and mid-fork low-rider rack mounts. Several years later, they adopted canti brakes on their flagship touring model, with lesser ones keeping the side pull brakes. The canti models offered more fender and tire clearance from prior years, which was welcome. I don't know enough nor have seen enough of those '86-88 years to know when the transition to better clearance happened, and whether it was only for canti models. I had an '85 ST400 and that could only fit 32mm tires. All these tourers came with 27" wheels for the longest time, but can be easily run with 700C wheels in either side pull or canti. I upgraded to (standard reach 47-57mm) dual pivot side pull calipers on my '85 which of course made it stop extremely well compared to single pivots. The canti models can be used with a ton of canti brakes, both period and modern. I run Tektro CR720s, and the pads just line up. Ideally I'd like the canti posts to be a touch lower, but it doesn't matter now. The CR720s with Kool Stop pads stop as ferociously as any good dual pivot brake on a touring or race bike of mine.
Cannondale measurements and frame geometries were well within industry norms. Frame size, cm for race bikes, inches for tourers, was/is measured from the center of the BB, up the seat top, to the top of the top tube, not to the top of the seat tube. 90% of sellers of these bikes incorrectly measure these frames. It doesn't help them sell their bikes, and is annoying for enthusiastic buyers (like me), but is really a non issue as I've developed a good eye for my size, OS tubes notwithstanding.
Frames in this early period differed little, with the frame being essentially identical throughout the hierarchy, and only the steel forks being made with nicer or lesser grades of steel (or features). Touring or road bikes, the differentiator per model was essentially the paint color and components. Casual bike sellers will say "old Cannondale" and a nutcase like me will happily run to the online catalogs and ID the year, type and model with relative ease. It's a fun game to play. Fonts changes slightly year to year, so that helps date a particular bike, but really, the Vintage Cannondale site has all the catalogs. Pick your size, pick your color, perhaps pick your preferred brake/tire/fender setup side pull or canti), and ride!
#45
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In the vintage world, these road bikes with rack/fender mounts were quite common.
For example most Motobecane bikes had fender eyelets & often had space for fenders. I've got a Grand Jubilee that is in their upper range with fenders and racks.
Some brands, however, such as Colnago chose not to add eyelets (at a 1 gram savings?).
Unfortunately, recently there seems to be a divergence between really cheap bikes (GMC Denali), and really expensive custom bikes.
I've been experimenting with a Jamis Coda conversion (the frame is now pushing 19 years old).
I still struggle with my longer rides, but I'm much happier riding on narrow tires than my last big ride on that bike with wide tires.
There are quite a few hybrids on the road. The Coda had caught my eye due to double butted 520 steel. I think Jamis has a few other mid-range models what would be worth considering, even new.
I recently picked up a very much racing style bike, filet brazed 853 steel which I'm planning on converting to mid-touring. It pains me to start welding and brazing on the frame, but it will give the bike a second life.
Short chainstays for touring?
My Argos has no eyelets. There may be room to tap the dropouts, but I'll probably weld some accessory eyelets to the dropouts.
I'm hoping the 853 will give a light stiff frame.
Lemond also used 853 on several of their bikes. They used a rear dropout that was tapped in the middle.
For example most Motobecane bikes had fender eyelets & often had space for fenders. I've got a Grand Jubilee that is in their upper range with fenders and racks.
Some brands, however, such as Colnago chose not to add eyelets (at a 1 gram savings?).
Unfortunately, recently there seems to be a divergence between really cheap bikes (GMC Denali), and really expensive custom bikes.
I've been experimenting with a Jamis Coda conversion (the frame is now pushing 19 years old).
I still struggle with my longer rides, but I'm much happier riding on narrow tires than my last big ride on that bike with wide tires.
There are quite a few hybrids on the road. The Coda had caught my eye due to double butted 520 steel. I think Jamis has a few other mid-range models what would be worth considering, even new.
I recently picked up a very much racing style bike, filet brazed 853 steel which I'm planning on converting to mid-touring. It pains me to start welding and brazing on the frame, but it will give the bike a second life.
Short chainstays for touring?
My Argos has no eyelets. There may be room to tap the dropouts, but I'll probably weld some accessory eyelets to the dropouts.
I'm hoping the 853 will give a light stiff frame.
Lemond also used 853 on several of their bikes. They used a rear dropout that was tapped in the middle.
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