Raleigh Competition & eBay questions
01-22-19, 07:35 PM
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Raleigh Competition & eBay questions
Today a 1970s era Raleigh Competition was delivered to my house from eBay. The bike has pretty much original parts with some changes (miche hubs and araya rims are one change). There is something seriously funky going on with the fork steering column, headset, and stem. I'll attach some pics. The fork was cut too short. The bike arrived with the headset lock nut and a threaded top race but no washer and lacking the piece also with a jagged threaded piece (I don't remember the name for the piece) that would allow me to get a proper adjustment. It is clear that the fork was cut too short and so there is no way to get a good adjustment with this headset. There are 4 threads showing on the fork above the locknut. There is no way, even with the right parts, that I could get an adjustment on this bike.
Plus the stem simply does not fit the fork. I'm not sure what is going on. I tried a different stem and it slotted it in nicely.
At this point I'm not sure what to do but I'll need to read the eBay return policies and move forward. How much time do I get?
Here are the pics:
Plus the stem simply does not fit the fork. I'm not sure what is going on. I tried a different stem and it slotted it in nicely.
At this point I'm not sure what to do but I'll need to read the eBay return policies and move forward. How much time do I get?
Here are the pics:
01-22-19, 07:44 PM
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I just read the eBay money back guarantee. I guess the way to start this is to notify the seller and see whether we can work something out. The seller has 3 days and if I don't like the deal, then I contact eBay and let it deal with the problem. What a pain.
Any ideas on how is the best way to move forward? I can't figure out why the stem won't insert into the fork but there are real issues with the front end (headset, fork, stem) of this bike.
Any ideas on how is the best way to move forward? I can't figure out why the stem won't insert into the fork but there are real issues with the front end (headset, fork, stem) of this bike.
01-22-19, 07:49 PM
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You might have a case to return the bike if what you got does not match what was in the ad copy. Sounds like you didn't get 100% of the headset. eBay typically sides with the buyer in about 99% of cases, so your chances are pretty good.
Assuming you want to salvage the bike and the original headset won't work, your starting point may be to locate a low stack height headset. Dura-Ace 7400 or Shimano 600 from the tricolor era ought to work.
The stem appears to have a great deal of surface corrosion. If you have another stem that works, that may be your solution.
Bike has nice lug work. Carton factory would be my best guess for builder.
Assuming you want to salvage the bike and the original headset won't work, your starting point may be to locate a low stack height headset. Dura-Ace 7400 or Shimano 600 from the tricolor era ought to work.
The stem appears to have a great deal of surface corrosion. If you have another stem that works, that may be your solution.
Bike has nice lug work. Carton factory would be my best guess for builder.
01-22-19, 07:53 PM
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You might have a case to return the bike if what you got does not match what was in the ad copy. Sounds like you didn't get 100% of the headset. eBay typically sides with the buyer in about 99% of cases, so your chances are pretty good.
Assuming you want to salvage the bike and the original headset won't work, your starting point may be to locate a low stack height headset. Dura-Ace 7400 or Shimano 600 from the tricolor era ought to work.
The stem appears to have a great deal of surface corrosion. If you have another stem that works, that may be your solution.
Bike has nice lug work. Carton factory would be my best guess for builder.
Assuming you want to salvage the bike and the original headset won't work, your starting point may be to locate a low stack height headset. Dura-Ace 7400 or Shimano 600 from the tricolor era ought to work.
The stem appears to have a great deal of surface corrosion. If you have another stem that works, that may be your solution.
Bike has nice lug work. Carton factory would be my best guess for builder.
There are so few threads showing that I'm not confident I can find a one inch headset to fit. And this shouldn't be my headache.
01-22-19, 07:57 PM
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So the stem and bars were on the bike? That looks like a Pivo stem, french sized.
01-22-19, 08:01 PM
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Bummer.
In consideration of the too short of fork tube and yet if the rest checks out good + factor one might wish too keep frame and fork together:
If you're only needing 1/8 inch, I would slightly deck and reface the head tube. Next ream the inside the same depth distance, allowing the top race to press further in.
In consideration of the too short of fork tube and yet if the rest checks out good + factor one might wish too keep frame and fork together:
If you're only needing 1/8 inch, I would slightly deck and reface the head tube. Next ream the inside the same depth distance, allowing the top race to press further in.
01-22-19, 08:05 PM
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01-22-19, 08:06 PM
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Bummer.
In consideration of the too short of fork tube and yet if the rest checks out good + factor one might wish too keep frame and fork together:
If you're only needing 1/8 inch, I would slightly deck and reface the head tube. Next ream the inside the same depth distance, allowing the top race to press further in.
In consideration of the too short of fork tube and yet if the rest checks out good + factor one might wish too keep frame and fork together:
If you're only needing 1/8 inch, I would slightly deck and reface the head tube. Next ream the inside the same depth distance, allowing the top race to press further in.
Plus I'll bet this bike was run for a while with a headset that was not properly adjusted which can damage the fork or the headtube. I don't have a high degree of confidence in this frame.
01-22-19, 08:09 PM
#9
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Headset looks like French headset. With its toothed top race. The threading looks insufficient for the frame, in other words, this is a mismatched fork. Perhaps it is French threaded and thus the Pivo stem. I think you have a significant case to return said bike, if the mismatch was not absolutely disclosed.
That being said, the rest of the frame with its Capella lugs looks worthy of a resto. You might argue for a reduction in price equivalent to the cost of a replacement fork (Surly, etc) and a a suitable headset. Probably should stick with a threaded headset, as it is appropriate for the rest of the vintage.
That being said, the rest of the frame with its Capella lugs looks worthy of a resto. You might argue for a reduction in price equivalent to the cost of a replacement fork (Surly, etc) and a a suitable headset. Probably should stick with a threaded headset, as it is appropriate for the rest of the vintage.
01-22-19, 09:06 PM
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All else aside, I'm in the "you didn't sign up for this headache" camp. Start return process immediately, seek another Competition elsewhere. Which of course is the other headache you didn't sign on for, but I guess you gotta pick one.
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01-22-19, 09:18 PM
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The serial no. on the bottom bracket is A563. That doesn't seem right since a 1970s era Raleigh I think--from what I've read--should have more than a 4 letter serial number.
I'm thinking this is a crashed bike and maybe a replacement fork. There is some dimpling and waves on the downtube. The bike has some nice looking huret drop outs in the rear but the drop outs on the front fork look like they're just stamped steel. Usually a bike with 531 DB tubing comes with nicer drop outs than this bike has on the front fork.
I'm thinking this is a crashed bike and maybe a replacement fork. There is some dimpling and waves on the downtube. The bike has some nice looking huret drop outs in the rear but the drop outs on the front fork look like they're just stamped steel. Usually a bike with 531 DB tubing comes with nicer drop outs than this bike has on the front fork.
Last edited by bikemig; 01-22-19 at 09:51 PM.
01-22-19, 09:54 PM
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Did not most of these Black Capella lugged Competitions have a fork with a fully sloping crown?
01-22-19, 10:08 PM
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I remember reading that the Capella lugs were used by Raleigh in 1973 on this and other models (Super Course like mine for example).
Finding a catalog page online for 1973 should clarify if the Stronglight headset is appropriate to the bike, in which case the steer tube does look to be perhaps a quarter inch short(?).
Anybody here know what the stack height is supposed to be for the Stronglight headset? I'm thinking that a shorter stack height headset MIGHT be a fix, but at the buyer's expense(???).
First contact the seller to see if they are at a conversational level to discuss this as needed. If not, then either negotiate compensatory expenses or request to return it.
Wouldn't this bike have come with centerpull brakes? That would suggest a longer steerer would be expected, and some spacers in addition to all of theheadset parts needed to work with the Universal side-pulls. So did someone cut the steerer short? That is the answer to be questioned, or vice-versa or something like that.
Finding a catalog page online for 1973 should clarify if the Stronglight headset is appropriate to the bike, in which case the steer tube does look to be perhaps a quarter inch short(?).
Anybody here know what the stack height is supposed to be for the Stronglight headset? I'm thinking that a shorter stack height headset MIGHT be a fix, but at the buyer's expense(???).
First contact the seller to see if they are at a conversational level to discuss this as needed. If not, then either negotiate compensatory expenses or request to return it.
Wouldn't this bike have come with centerpull brakes? That would suggest a longer steerer would be expected, and some spacers in addition to all of theheadset parts needed to work with the Universal side-pulls. So did someone cut the steerer short? That is the answer to be questioned, or vice-versa or something like that.
01-22-19, 10:14 PM
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I remember reading that the Capella lugs were used by Raleigh in 1973 on this and other models (Super Course like mine for example).
Finding a catalog page online for 1973 should clarify if the Stronglight headset is appropriate to the bike, in which case the steer tube does look to be perhaps a quarter inch short(?).
Anybody here know what the stack height is supposed to be for the Stronglight headset? I'm thinking that a shorter stack height headset MIGHT be a fix, but at the buyer's expense(???).
First contact the seller to see if they are at a conversational level to discuss this as needed. If not, then either negotiate compensatory expenses or request to return it.
Wouldn't this bike have come with centerpull brakes? That would suggest a longer steerer would be expected, and some spacers in addition to all of theheadset parts needed to work with the Universal side-pulls. So did someone cut the steerer short? That is the answer to be questioned, or vice-versa or something like that.
Finding a catalog page online for 1973 should clarify if the Stronglight headset is appropriate to the bike, in which case the steer tube does look to be perhaps a quarter inch short(?).
Anybody here know what the stack height is supposed to be for the Stronglight headset? I'm thinking that a shorter stack height headset MIGHT be a fix, but at the buyer's expense(???).
First contact the seller to see if they are at a conversational level to discuss this as needed. If not, then either negotiate compensatory expenses or request to return it.
Wouldn't this bike have come with centerpull brakes? That would suggest a longer steerer would be expected, and some spacers in addition to all of theheadset parts needed to work with the Universal side-pulls. So did someone cut the steerer short? That is the answer to be questioned, or vice-versa or something like that.
The competitions did come with centerpulls; this has universal 68 sidepulls. I'll bet the sidepulls were thrown on to deal with the steerer being too short. I'm thinking this bike at best is a parts donor at this point since dealing with a replacement fork is a major headache that I didn't bargain for.
Last edited by bikemig; 01-22-19 at 10:31 PM.
01-22-19, 10:33 PM
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I appreciate all the info. I contacted the seller and we'll see what happens. I know under eBay's rules, we're supposed to try to work something out before contacting eBay.
01-23-19, 12:25 AM
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That's almost assuredly not the original fork. If eBay and the seller can't make you whole, PM me. I hate to see a Capella lugged Comp go to waste.
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01-23-19, 12:39 AM
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raleigh-Com...-/233082149906
Wonderful lug work.
Nice saddle.
The seller does set himself up a bit for complaints by writing "All original"
I've seen those toothed headsets before, I think on a Mercier, as @elcraft mentioned. However, I think the teeth are used for spacers and perhaps for center pull brakes (which the bike doesn't have).
Actually, if you look at the E-Bay photos, you can see the headset assembled with the locknut directly on the teeth.
One option would be to grind the teeth smooth, that would give you another 1/8" or so, but locking the headset without flats on the lower nut would be a pain.
You could also look for a shorter stack headset. Or, of course, finding a better fork.
These kinds of things are a bit of a let-down. I'd probably keep the bike, if the frame is straight. But, if the TT/DT are bent, it could well get packed up and head back, or I'd ask for a significant discount.
If it is a mild bend, the HT might be able to be pulled back out. Park HTS-1?
Wonderful lug work.
Nice saddle.
The seller does set himself up a bit for complaints by writing "All original"
I've seen those toothed headsets before, I think on a Mercier, as @elcraft mentioned. However, I think the teeth are used for spacers and perhaps for center pull brakes (which the bike doesn't have).
Actually, if you look at the E-Bay photos, you can see the headset assembled with the locknut directly on the teeth.
One option would be to grind the teeth smooth, that would give you another 1/8" or so, but locking the headset without flats on the lower nut would be a pain.
You could also look for a shorter stack headset. Or, of course, finding a better fork.
These kinds of things are a bit of a let-down. I'd probably keep the bike, if the frame is straight. But, if the TT/DT are bent, it could well get packed up and head back, or I'd ask for a significant discount.
If it is a mild bend, the HT might be able to be pulled back out. Park HTS-1?
01-23-19, 12:46 AM
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FWIW, and from what I can tell from your photos, this is the correct type of fork for your bike. In the 1973 catalog a flat type of crown is shown that is similar to the Raleigh International, only not chromed, and not the sloping kind from other years; however, I do agree that it is a replacement fork that is likely due to a head on collision. It looks like they thought they found a suitable fork from a smaller frame from the same year and that leaves you with no room for adjustment. The A serial number is also correct for 1973 even if it only has 3 numeric digits after the A. I have a Carlton built Raleigh Professional from 1972 with a G serial # and it only has 3 numeric digits, it was just earlier in the production sequence. I believe that the Capella lugs belonged to Carlton only, so the seller is correct about the model being a 1973 Competition, but the condition of the bike is definitely suspect and seems not to have been properly disclosed at the time of sale.The rippling on the down tube screams “crash” and is concerning enough that it would be difficult to get much cash value if you should choose to sell in the future. Good luck with this whatever you decide. If it were me, I would return it, as the bike is not really rare and a better one will likely come along soon.
01-23-19, 12:55 AM
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Does an "ISO" headset screw onto your fork?
Does your "Raleigh" headset screw onto another fork?
Sheldon Brown has an interesting note:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-headsets.html
Does your "Raleigh" headset screw onto another fork?
Sheldon Brown has an interesting note:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-headsets.html
Obsolete. French steerers usually have a flat filed on the back, rather than a grooved keyway as with other threaded systems. The bottom headset parts wear faster; you can replace them with ISO parts and use the old top headset.
01-23-19, 03:14 AM
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01-23-19, 07:06 AM
#21
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...It looks like they thought they found a suitable fork from a smaller frame from the same year and that leaves you with no room for adjustment...The rippling on the down tube screams “crash” and is concerning enough that it would be difficult to get much cash value if you should choose to sell in the future. Good luck with this whatever you decide. If it were me, I would return it, as the bike is not really rare and a better one will likely come along soon.
With likely frame damage, a replacement fork which necessitates a headache to make it work, and general crustiness of the frame, I'd ship it back and keep an eye out for a better quality Competition. Plenty out there, and probably for not much more (or even less) than what this one went for.
01-23-19, 07:41 AM
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Yeah, if the frame has crash damage and the fork doesn't fit, it has to go back. Too bad...but it's basically worth what you can get for parting it out (Jubilee derailleurs, wheels, crank, saddle... it doesn't add up). The frame and fork can probably be salvaged... but you didn't pay a salvage price.
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01-23-19, 08:04 AM
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Yeah, if the frame has crash damage and the fork doesn't fit, it has to go back. Too bad...but it's basically worth what you can get for parting it out (Jubilee derailleurs, wheels, crank, saddle... it doesn't add up). The frame and fork can probably be salvaged... but you didn't pay a salvage price.
.
01-23-19, 09:14 AM
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Despite the obvious hassle of re-packing, I think the mojo here is already bad, Miguel.
If you knew it going in, paid accordingly, it may be a project for someone who really enjoys all that machining work.
(Like Grune-O, who just experienced a similar issue with a Sachs).
However, that wasn't part of the deal. I'd simply get my money + my shipping back.
Then you can buy me more beer at Coppi. Just a thought.
If you knew it going in, paid accordingly, it may be a project for someone who really enjoys all that machining work.
(Like Grune-O, who just experienced a similar issue with a Sachs).
However, that wasn't part of the deal. I'd simply get my money + my shipping back.
Then you can buy me more beer at Coppi. Just a thought.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 01-23-19 at 09:18 AM.
01-23-19, 09:25 AM
#25
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The biggest issue, the fork is not original to the bike, may also be the solution - get a replacement fork. You can even buy a fully sloping, Cinelli-style, fork. Paint it black to match the bike.
The stem looks abused. I bet the burrs are preventing insertion.
The stem looks abused. I bet the burrs are preventing insertion.