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Longshot frame ID

Old 06-18-20, 05:02 PM
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KlunkerBiker
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Longshot frame ID

Hi all, I know this is a long shot, but I purchased a parts bike recently because I could tell the frame was of some quality. It's got Campy dropouts, headset and crankset, chromed headtube lugs and the same fork crown that my '74 Raleigh Professional has. Unfortunately it appears to have had a repaint where the original coat was stripped.

Any thoughts?





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Old 06-18-20, 05:19 PM
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BB threading? Seatpost size? Forkcrown COULD be British (Haden or Davis) but the serial number sure does not look "Raleigh" to my eye.
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Old 06-18-20, 05:23 PM
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The serial number font doesn't look like Raleigh. I can't make out the entire serial, but if it doesn't start with a W and have another letter immediately following, it DEFINITELY is not a Raleigh. Also a Raleigh Professional made in 1974 would have fastback stays. I do see the similarity with the rest of the lugs and the general shape of the fork crown though.

It looks like a very well made bicycle and with top of the line dropouts, but I think you can rule out Raleigh as the maker.
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Old 06-18-20, 05:25 PM
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I agree. Not a Raleigh. My WAG: Condor.
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Old 06-18-20, 05:56 PM
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Thank you gentlemen. I agree this probably isn't Raleigh. The serial number appears to only have 4 numbers and it looks as if 58 (probably the size?) Is stamped on the shell at the DT junction.

Any hints on what or where else to look for identifying marks?

Also, haven't removed the BB yet as my crank arm tool is in storage and I need to locate and retrieve still.
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Old 06-18-20, 06:30 PM
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The fork crown ought to be distinctive enough for someone to identify the source for that. Long point lugs suggest 70s to me. WAG: Italvega?
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Old 06-18-20, 06:50 PM
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You may want to post a picture of the full frame in profile. Nice job on the detail shots. Maybe also show the lug points behind the head tube.
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Old 06-18-20, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
The fork crown ought to be distinctive enough for someone to identify the source for that. Long point lugs suggest 70s to me. WAG: Italvega?
That was kind of my thought when referencing my '74 Raleigh, similar era. I have had an older Italvega frame in the past, not sure of the year, for sure similar lugs but mine had cheap stamped dropouts if I remember correctly. I didn't have the original fork though, so I couldn't compare that.
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Old 06-19-20, 12:05 AM
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Italvega also popped into my head, but need to know the BB (it's prolly stamped on the cup if you get the cranks off) and I think it's the paint and chrome together that gives it that whiff, but not sure if these details match the top Italvega models; IIRC they had some disticntive BB shell piercings, correct? And those under BB cable guides, if original, point to a "late-late in the era '70s" or there were some later braze-ons. I don't know enough about what Condors look like to say yay or nay....paging MauriceMoss and some of the usual experts.

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Old 06-19-20, 03:00 PM
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stays to dropout treatment looks Italian but the fork crown is NOT Cinelli
looks more like Davis which would lead to Brit build. BB threads will tell
under BB cable routing means 78 or later
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Old 06-20-20, 08:54 AM
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Wow, interesting find there. My size too! Where are you located again? Heh, so what’s the story behind this frame and fork and how did you get it?

The paint looks pretty good. The BB serial number looks pretty sharp but the possible size number a little filled in. The paint detail around the lugs looks like production though. If a repaint with a few mods, it was well done.

The lighting inside the garage may make color Identification a little harder because shading changes with lighting. Cameras can also change shading.

BB and numbers kinda looks a little like this:


Or with a little lighting effect:


The seat lug kinda looks like this:


or this:


The head lugs are similar to this:


Ignore the stack.

The bottom head lug and crown detail resembles this:


The head tube makes me think of this:


The fork treatment makes me think of this:



To be continued!

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Old 06-20-20, 09:16 AM
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and the rear Campy dropouts remind me of this with a couple of different details:



But gosh, even though it seems a little familiar, I just have no idea!

i would say though that you should be able to use your super sleuthing ability to figure out the BB threading without taking off the cranks. Just use a Sherlock Holmes method with one of his famous tools and look “wery, wery careful-wry” like this:


As Holmes would say: “Watson, their are still more clues and important details to uncover. The Inspectors above have mentioned a number of areas ripe for investigation so we must press on. More questioning and detailed viewing will be needed, but especially we must see the forest before we get lost among the trees. Even with a clever disguise to try to throw us off, we will reveal our mystery's true identity.”

“Remember, once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

“Come Watson! The game is afoot! Or at the very least, in a toeclip!”

Bart

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Old 06-20-20, 11:34 AM
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Well! Enough details match to say definitely is a Italvega (Torresini) product, even seems there was at least a model with Campy ends that did not get any BB shell piercings, like the "Super Light", but have welded shells. HOWever, either the OP's had the under-bb guides and stop brazed on after-market OR this was a latest of the '70s model, so would have been toward the end of the Italian line for the "-vegas" and just about when Mr. Lawee was transitioning to Japan and launching "Univega".
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Old 06-20-20, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Well! Enough details match to say definitely is a Italvega (Torresini) product, even seems there was at least a model with Campy ends that did not get any BB shell piercings, like the "Super Light", but have welded shells. HOWever, either the OP's had the under-bb guides and stop brazed on after-market OR this was a latest of the '70s model, so would have been toward the end of the Italian line for the "-vegas" and just about when Mr. Lawee was transitioning to Japan and launching "Univega".
my sense of it is a Torpado-Torresini product. Seeing as Klunkerbiker is in Idaho and not New York or Detroit, it’s more likely an Italvega branded than Torpado branded because Torpados were sold primarily in Canada in that era, probably a marketing agreement with Lawee.

I agree the BB cable guides and upside down shifter cable stop were brazed add on’s. The lack of lug lining and brown metallic shade difference suggests a repaint - from variously called cola, root beer, or cofffee brown to more of a milk chocolate or cocoa brown.

Discussion of early Italvega models:
All earlier 70-74 transition year Italvegas, AFAIK, had Agrati seamed and welded BB shells and the lug pattern varied a bit - I have seen three, maybe 4 variations through the years and models.

The Italvega models with full Columbus tubing frames (SP), forks and stays (exhibiting the early rectangular Columbus frame sticker in Italian, French or English) include the Super Speciale, Super Record, and the later 74-76 new model Super Speciale and Superlight. The Super Record also was a holdover through 74-76 and was upgraded . I have no solid documentation that Italvega produced (smaller?) frames made with SL tubing as all frames I have come across so far use a 27.0 seatpost.
The Italvega models with Campagnolo rear dropouts include the Super Speciale, Super Record, Gran Rallye, and Nuovo Record.

The Italvega models with Columbus trei tubing (3 tubes) frames and uncommon triangular gold tubing decal include the Gran Rallye, Gran Turismo, and Nuovo Record. The forks and stays were likely Falck tubing.
The Italvega models with stamped rear dropouts include the Gran Turismo and any model / frame which used a separate claw derailleur hanger.

The Italvega models with a sloping chromed fork crown would include the earlier Super Speciale, Super Record, Gran Rallye, and Nuovo Record. The later Super Record in the 74-76 brochure online stated it was a "Thomas Crown", not to be confused with Steve McQueen or Pierce Brosnan.
The Italvega models with flat fork crown include the Gran Turismo and all other lower level models.

The Italvega models with Campagnolo fork tips include the Super Speciale, Super Record, Gran Rallye.
The Italvega models with stamped fork tips include the Nuovo Record, Gran Turismo, and all other lower level bikes.

Once we see Klunkerbikes frame, we'll discuss the paint/chrome patterns. juvela also know a lot about these bikes.
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Old 06-21-20, 05:35 PM
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Gosh! mech986 , It looks like you probably nailed it. There are remnants of stickers on the fork blades and seat tube which Iv'e included pictures of.

My reason for popping on this bike was that I want to recreate a bike I built about 8 years ago that I ended up selling to a friend, which I miss dearly, the bike not the friend, I see him frequently (pictures of that build below as well, link here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/blackt...57637945152843)








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Old 06-21-20, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mech986 View Post
Heh, so what’s the story behind this frame and fork and how did you get it?
To answer your questions about the frames origin, well, the story begins like this....

About a week ago while perusing Facebook marketplace I saw this ad:






I couldn't see much except that it looked like chromed lugs and maybe either Campy or Sugino cranks. I answered the ad immediately and actually got into my car driving his direction when I saw he replied that he had given them away already. Disappointed, I turned around and headed home, but stopped on the way for a consolation milkshake.

Well, the next day I got a Facebook message that he still had the bikes and the first guy never showed up! I told him I'd be there either say day or next. he told me to come the next day and so I did, loaded them both up, dropped one off at storage and brought the bronze bike home for disassembly and examination. The former owner told me his dad had built it up for him, evidently as a city style bike, but that he had just replaced it with a newer Felt roadbike.

My plan for the green bike is to make it safe, roadworthy and give it to someone who needs one. Not sure the plan for this one as I am awaiting my friend to tell me if the size is comparable to the porteur style bike I sold him. That bike was great, but I never had the original fork for it, and it had no brazeons, just clamped on bits and Sugino Maxy cranks. I'm not tall, but the other bike, after being converted to fat 700c tires fit me very comfortably, and I believe it was a 57 or 58 also.

Worst case scenario, I may clean it up, clean threads, reface BB and HT, square and align dropouts and put it on eBay.... It kinda all depends on fit.
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Old 06-21-20, 06:42 PM
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Ital BB threads, Columbus fork blade decal (so another nail in any Brit bike theory) and you got this for FREE?! Nice going, I'm sure it will find a good home. You think it has clearance for "fat tires"? Hope so.
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Old 06-21-20, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Ital BB threads, Columbus fork blade decal (so another nail in any Brit bike theory) and you got this for FREE?! Nice going, I'm sure it will find a good home. You think it has clearance for "fat tires"? Hope so.
Thanks! Yes, most definitely not British.

Well, 32 or 35 width is probably fat enough for me on this frame. I haven't measured it yet for clearance, but I expect it "should" fit, if not, I'll send it to a person who can properly care for it.
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Old 06-22-20, 12:50 AM
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Thanks Klunker for the update and additional photos. I forgot to ask you to detail the fork dropouts and tell us if they are Campagnolo tips or stamped tips. That will go a long way to differentiating the original model.

The remnant fork decal is a Columbus fork decal but a later one. No Italvega models from 1970-1976 ever had fork tubing decals so it was likely added during this frame’s refurbishment. The added braze-ons for shifters, cable runs and paint are evidence of this refurbishment.

Can you advise what other parts came with the bike as you received it? Nice to have gotten the Campagnolo Italian bottom bracket though. I wonder if any of the other parts were original?

Do you have access to your friend’s porteur bike for better and more recent closeup pics? From what I can tell, the porteur bike’s frame had a flat Italvega badge, so either 70 or 71 as the 3D badges with gold outlining came in 1972. Did that bike have Campy dropouts and fork tips, plus chromed seat stay caps? That and any BB serial numbers would help figure that bikes history.
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Old 06-22-20, 01:01 AM
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As for your question of what size wheels and tires may fit, assuming 700C wheels of sufficient width, I can attest to using 700C x 35 Compass (now René Herse) Bon Jon Pass Extralight casing tires on my 72 Super Speciale with Campagnolo Record brakes running about 45-50 psi front, 50-55psi rear, there may actually be enough clearance for 38’s at lower pressure.

It’s not easy though to get them up into the brakes without deflating the tires or taking off on pad holder. Centerpulls May be easier to navigate. The other downside is you must run the wheels way back in the rear dropouts for stay and crossbar clearance and the front tires may have toeclip or shoe overlap if you run long cranks, XXL clips like I do or wear long sized shoes. Also, the wider/larger the tire, the higher your bike rides so the top tube stand over and seat swing over heights go up too, possibly to the point of needing seat adjustments or even a next size smaller frame.

This may also also depend on the particular brand or model tire you use. Test fitting was always needed to be sure.

Here’s a pic of my Italvega Super Speciale as set up for Eroica California. Enjoy!



1972 Italvega Super Speciale, my high school senior bike.

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Old 06-22-20, 01:06 AM
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Italvega/Torpado

Hey guys...

That one of the thickest powder coat jobs I've seen... Just sayin'

Italvega/Torpado with braze-ons added.

Well worth a respray and nice build.

verktyg
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Old 06-22-20, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mech986 View Post
Thanks Klunker for the update and additional photos. I forgot to ask you to detail the fork dropouts and tell us if they are Campagnolo tips or stamped tips.
Here's a pic of the fork tips. Definitely cast and chromed.

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Old 06-22-20, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mech986 View Post
Can you advise what other parts came with the bike as you received it? Nice to have gotten the Campagnolo Italian bottom bracket though. I wonder if any of the other parts were original?

Do you have access to your friend’s porteur bike for better and more recent closeup pics? From what I can tell, the porteur bike’s frame had a flat Italvega badge, so either 70 or 71 as the 3D badges with gold outlining came in 1972. Did that bike have Campy dropouts and fork tips, plus chromed seat stay caps? That and any BB serial numbers would help figure that bikes history.
Other than the Campy crankset (that was poorly singlespeed converted) headset and BB, I dont believe anything else I got was original, Maybe the rear wheel???

My friends bike has stamped, chromed rear dropouts, and chromed stays. Also, to correct myself, the crankset is Sugino Mighty. I'll have to ask him for pictures of the rear triangle and the serial number as we now live 1200 miles away from one another.

How I got that bike is an interesting story as well. I was once asked by a friend as a favor to appraise a bunch of "vintage" bikes that were purchased in mass. When I arrived the bikes were all in a pile outside. Most were junky wal-mart bicycles that had just rusted to look old, and a few American step-though frames from the 60's and 70's. I informed my friend that it was all pretty much worthless except for the one Italian made frame, that was missing it's form and a little dinged up. He was disappointed but in appreciation for my time gave me the only "good" frame among them, that blue Italvega. At the time I was very infatuated with the French porteur bikes of the 40's and 50's, so I thought it would be fun to build a working mans version of one of those for errands around town, So I built those non-machined Velocity rims to a matched set of SA 2sp coaster hubs, found a 700c fork for this 27" wheel frame, which helped it to achieve a lower trail, more complementary to the VO porteur rack I installed. It really is a brilliant bike, very functional and always gets looks. It looked super cool sitting on it's center stand-kickstand.

More bronze bike related pictures


Rear brake

Rear Campy wheel

Rear rim

Front normandy hub

Front rim
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Old 06-23-20, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Hey guys...

That one of the thickest powder coat jobs I've seen... Just sayin'

Italvega/Torpado with braze-ons added.

Well worth a respray and nice build.

verktyg
Hi verktyg, I agree KB's frame is worth a nice build. I don't believe the finish is powder coat because its just so hard to mask off chrome lugs, fork ends, dropouts, and seat stay caps. My guess is the bike is a 71-72 based on the serial number, and a Super Record or Super Speciale frame based on the chromed Campagnolo dropouts, fork tips and seat stay caps. Unlikely to be the Gran Rallye since that usually included eyelets for racks but I suppose those could also have been removed during the previous refurbishment. The clear way to know would be to strip off all the paint and look for what parts of the frame are actually chromed. AFAIK, the Italvega frames are actually not fully chromed, or at least not fully polished chrome.

As it stands, the paint is in pretty decent conditions save for a few areas where its lifting at wear points like the dropouts and seat lug. I'd be inclined to leave the paint alone, add some nice contrasting lug lining, decals and a clear coat or lots of wax.

Originally Posted by KlunkerBiker View Post
Here's a pic of the fork tips. Definitely cast and chromed.

Yeah, that pretty much cinches it as the full Columbus SP tubing of either the Super Speciale or Super Record frame. They only varied by whether they had chrome rear stay socks and the level of Campagnolo equipment, particularly the brakes.

BTW, since you changed out the fork on the porteur bike, do you still have it? That could be useful to me if you don't need it.

Bart
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Old 06-23-20, 07:32 AM
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I agree best answer an italvega or torpado branded frame, updated at some point, repainted. If not reduced, Imron would go on pretty thick.
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