Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Help ID vintage Italian

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Help ID vintage Italian

Old 06-23-20, 04:07 PM
  #1  
jrstewart3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Help ID vintage Italian

This has been repainted, so we need some help. S/N on top of seat tube D0126. BB is Italian thread. Campy dropouts.




















jrstewart3 is offline  
Old 06-23-20, 06:38 PM
  #2  
oneclick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times in 58 Posts
Interesting.

The cheap campy dropouts contrast with fancy business in the top-tube.
oneclick is offline  
Old 06-23-20, 06:42 PM
  #3  
mech986
Senior Member
 
mech986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: La Habra, California
Posts: 508

Bikes: Italvega Super Speciales and Superlights

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 29 Posts
Almost kinda looked dipped rather than repainted.
mech986 is online now  
Old 06-23-20, 06:44 PM
  #4  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 7,241

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 215 Times in 168 Posts
It crossed my mind that it's an older frame with multiple modifications.
dddd is offline  
Old 06-23-20, 07:27 PM
  #5  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,636
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 485 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 119 Posts
juvela has a feel for these elderly Italian frames. I think the serial number location and that forkcrown will be telling clues, there were several brands that used similar lugsets and everybody that did had the "bullet" stay caps, but don't see many with all this AND stamped Campy-branded DOs with internal TT cable routing, it's fairly unusual.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 01:17 AM
  #6  
tailzdru
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've just purchased a supposed vintage De Rosa which looks to have similar features. I'm unsure about the ID of my frame too though, i'll post a pic once I hit 10 posts
tailzdru is offline  
Old 06-27-20, 03:18 PM
  #7  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 9,320
Mentioned: 262 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2061 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times in 255 Posts
-----

frame's lugset is Agrati "ROMA" pattern nr. 000.8020/U

upper head lug is item nr. 000.8024

lower head lug is item nr. 000.8023

seat lug is item nr. 023.8059

fork crown is from another Agrati lug ensemble, the "BRIANZA", and is item nr. 000.8038

---

internal cable routing is fairly common in Italian frames going at least as far back as the 1920's. all examples recalled however exhibit a grommet around the holes. so suspect this case represents a reworking.

---

serial number is of a format employed by Olmo but do not know if that maker ever employed this placement. Olmo serials with this format are usually marked on the seat lug.

here is an Olmo bicycle with the bullet seat stays and the Campag Sport ends. it's even the same orange colour. however lug pattern and seat binder arrangement is different.





---

frame's Campag Sport ends set nr. 1010/1 -




-----
juvela is offline  
Likes For juvela:
Old 06-29-20, 04:12 PM
  #8  
jrstewart3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wow, Thank you everyone for the input on this I had not mentioned the mix of components initially. mainly because I suspected many were not original.

Rear Derailleur - Campy Nouvo Record
Front Derailleur Campy Nouvo Record
Crankset Campy Nouvo Record
Brake calipers Shimano Durace
Brake levers Campy Aero ( with non aero hood :-(
Headset we Shimano
hubs are campy Record ( I think)
Mavic tubular rims

Goal is to rebuild to a good functioning Italian bike, not a totally restoration.
jrstewart3 is offline  
Old 06-29-20, 04:44 PM
  #9  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 9,320
Mentioned: 262 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2061 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times in 255 Posts
-----

frame appears to be one which would have been one to one and one half notches above the base in a manufacturer's range of production road machines

so none of the fittings mentioned would have been original to the bicycle

one fairly large producer who made extensive use of the Agrati "ROMA" lug pattern was Garlatti. their frames had these bullet seat stays. their dropouts were similar but they employed the Agrati version of the Campag Sport. cannot ever recall seeing a Garlatti product made with the Agrati "BRIANZA" pattern fork crown however. which of course does not mean that none exist...

the blue overspray visible on the steerer is a stock colour used by Garlatti at one time.

the manufacturer liked to place guides for the rear brake cable housing on the underside of the top tube. you could check this area to see if there is evidence of their removal in the form of brass traces and/or saw marks.

you could try looking at some Garlatti cycles online to see if you can find a similar one.

we have not received a report as to whether or not there is evidence of head emblem fastener holes being filled in.

date looks as though it may be somewhere near to 1970. w/b mounts a definite add-on. shift lever bosses may be an add-on as well.

-----

Last edited by juvela; 07-01-20 at 09:40 AM. Reason: addition
juvela is offline  
Likes For juvela:
Old 06-30-20, 07:31 PM
  #10  
MauriceMoss
Senior Member
 
MauriceMoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 397

Bikes: None in ridable condition

Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked 96 Times in 48 Posts
Unfortunately, there were many, many bikes manufactured in Italy that are very similar to this frame that it's kind of tough to say who may have made it.
Internal cable routing wasn't uncommon when this frame was made but it does look more like a mod than original work.
On this mystery frame, I would expect to see internal cabling finished off with a 'grommet' like this one (from an older, 1951 frame):





Also, it looks like both orange and purple are respray colors. Is there a light blue I see inside the seat lug? Maybe that's a remnant of the original?

Don't know if this will help or not, but the serial number format and position (and the almost home-made style) reminds me of numbers on some Bartali badged frames. Here are some examples I've come across:




​​
There were Bartali frames with bullet seat stay caps and internal cable routing as well.

Judging by the age of the mystery bike here (and if this was a Bartali badged frame), it would be from the Fratelli Margherita period rather than the Santamaria (which ended in mid-50s), although Bartali could have contracted other builders later on as well.
MauriceMoss is offline  
Likes For MauriceMoss:
Old 07-01-20, 09:34 AM
  #11  
robertorolfo
Senior Member
 
robertorolfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,284

Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 789 Post(s)
Liked 73 Times in 52 Posts
Nothing to contribute, just want to thank juvela for all of this knowledge he is sharing... (and hopefully he isn't Juventino)
robertorolfo is offline  
Likes For robertorolfo:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.