Matador6

Does anyone have any scans or links to scans of any Raphael Geminiani catalogs from the 1955 to 1965 era? I'm trying to piece together some research, and catalog pages showing the models they had available at the time would be extremely helpful. Thank you.

Markeologist

Matador6, I don't currently have a scan but I have a mid-60s Geminiani catalog that is EXACTLY the same as what GitaneUSA indicates is a 1967 Gitane catalog save the name of the brand::https://www.gitaneusa.com/images/cata...67-Cat-001.jpg
I mean exactly the same except for name on cover....Geminiani bikes at this time were clearly MICMO bikes along with Gitane.

I know you are looking for 1965 and earlier … I think GitaneUSA's date of catalog is off (they are basing on pencil marks on cover which has been erased and rewritten) as I also have a 1965 photograph of Ford-Gitane team and the image of the Model "No. 100" in both the Geminiani and Gitane catalogs is ALSO used on border of 1965 team photograph.

obrentharris 

@Matador6 If the Geminiani in question is the light blue frame that was recently on ebay, it appeared as a full bike before that on craigslist in Laguna Beach. The craigslist photos were bad but I could make out that it had MAFAC "Top-63" brake calipers. This would indicate 1963 or later.
Brent

Matador6

@Markeologist Than you very much for the help and information. I think I can safely saw that the catalog year I would be most interested in is 1963, but if you ever get a chance to scan in your catalog, I would love to see it. I haven't been able to find any 60's era Geminiani catalogs on the web at all. I'll be posting some pictures on a new thread soon, and perhaps that will help confirm or deny that this Geminiani was built by Gitane. Again, many thanks!

Matador6

@obrentharris You are a superhero! Seriously, I can't thank you enough. I do believe you are correct, and my Geminiani frame is in fact the one you're referring to. I got a message from the seller and he confirmed that when he bought it, it did come with MAFAC brake calipers. Your memory of the Top-63 model knocks the ball out of the park for me! I found a comment on velobase.com that The "Top 63 was launched on the 1962 Salon du Cycle (Le Cycle Nov./Dec. 1962)" My frame has a city registration sticker on it from 1963, ergo I think this gets me pretty close to being able to say with a great deal of certainty that the bike was manufactured, imported, and sold in 1963 (assuming the Top 63 was not put on later, which seems unlikely. Although the 1962 & 64 Gitane catalogs show the higher end models coming with MAFAC Tiger and Racer models, other reports tell me that there was a great deal of variance between what the Gitane catalogs said and what showed up in the 'showroom'). Again, I can't thank you enough!!

Markeologist

Like I said @Matador6, the catalogs are IDENTICAL except for name on cover. Here is a photo of my original Geminiani catalog and an enlarged copy of the cover of the Gitane catalog pulled from GitaneUSA website. Folks have long speculated who actually made Geminiani bikes but at least in the mid-60s, MICMO clearly was. Those are a couple original Geminiani decals (stickers, not water transfer) as seen on the 1966 Ford-Hutchinson and 1967/68 BiC Geminiani team bikes. Some team members were assigned to ride Geminianis (e.g., Aimar, Jimenez) while others rode Anquetils (e.g., Anquetil, Denson). That suggests to me that both Geminianis and Anquetils were made by same manufacturer.

Post some pix of frame, in particular the seat stay caps as well as head tube, I’ve got lots of photos to compare against.

Markeologist

...and here is my European market Gitane No. 100 "Champion du Monde" which I've been trying to date. Trying to figure out how folks place start of foil era at 1968 as my frame predates that (Nervex Pro lugs, style of seat stay finish...neither swagged nor Carre-style willow leaf). I think the apparent mis-dating of the GitaneUSA catalog is a likely culprit....I think catalog is actually 1965...perhaps even earlier based on "Gitane" script on cover which matches earlier 60s Gitanes not later 60s models and the use of the No. 100 illustration from catalog also on the 1965 Ford-Gitane team photo.

Matador6

@Markeologist Wow! that is super cool! Must have been a pretty short marketing meeting that came up with these catalogs! Thanks for sharing!!! Here are some preliminary pictures from the ebay auction that show the areas you asked about, plus a couple others. The lugs are NERVEX Professionals, and the paint seems original. The ghost image left from the (now long gone) decals reads "R. Geminiani Special" with Reynolds 531 decals. The top tube originally had brackets to hold a frame pump, but they have been cut off.

Matador6

@Markeologist That is a beauty! Amateur question; when you say the "style of the seat stay finish...neither swagged nor Carre-style willow leaf" how do you identify those two styles and what is the swagged style indicative of?

Markeologist

@Matador6...lovely frame...very similar to my Gitane except I don't have chrome socks. Your frame has pre-foil era seat tube decal similar to what is seen in the Gitane/Geminiani catalog of what I think is 1965. As far as seat stay caps, Chas has posted numerous time over on GitaneUSA on the finish of the seat stays. Chas sees a transition from Carre-style willow leaf seat stay caps to a swagged seat stay on higher end models which was incorporated as a time/budget saving move as the bike boom progressed. All well and good. What you and I have dates to prior to that sequence (which dates from very late 1960s into early 70s). Earlier in the 1960s, Gitane and Geminiani as well, had frames concurrently with the finished seat stay caps like both our frames have or a swagged and crimped seat stay. I think the swagged and crimped style was found on more budget conscious models as it emulates the finish on our frames but did not require the handwork of finishing the seat stay as exhibited on our frames. Below is a picture of a Gitane track frame, pre-foil era with the seat stay caps like our frames. There is also a picture of Anquetil on seat tube which dates this bike to 1965 or earlier.

Markeologist

...and just so folks can visualize, here is a Gitane with Carre-style seat stay "caps" and foil era decals...but also notice Nervex lugs which are last mentioned in "1966" pricelist as provided by GitaneUSA (I think that pricelist is also likely mis-dated as Anquetil was nor riding a Gitane in 1966). This frame is marked as a "100" on fork which dates this foil era bike to before 1968 when the entire line of Gitanes were renumbered from 100s to 500s and that is why we see the cut-off decals on later Gitane TdFs….the number "102" was no longer applicable. Last pic is of a pre-1968 TdF fork where decal has not been cut-off.






.

Markeologist

Check the Geminani on Classic Rendezvous @Matador6...still retains pump peg/hangers.

Geminiani Special frame

T-Mar

Here's another piece to the puzzle. The subject catalogs would appear to be pre-1966. An announcement appeared in a French cycling industry trade paper that Cizeron would be manufacturing 1966 pro team bicycles under both Anquetil and Geminiani branding. The announcement actually shows two pro teams (and a 3rd amateur team) but the jersey description is the same for both teams, though they don't mention sponsors. Maybe they were considered A & B squads? I'm not quite sure of the rationale behind it, but it corroborates with the the observation of two brands being used by the 1966 Ford-France pro team and more importantly, identifies the manufacturer.

Cizeron was a full range manufacturer based in St. Etienne, so there's a good probability that they also manufactured the complete lines for both brands. I found another trade paper announcement from 1971 stating that they were still manufacturing the Anquetil and Geminini brands at that time, in addition to their own brands of Rochet, Olympique and Campione. They also contract manufactured Jeunet and were responsible for the French manufactured Fransesco Moser bicycles that pop up from time to time.

So, there is evidence supporting Geminiani being manufactured by Cizeron for 1966 and 1971 and probably the years between. That suggests the Gitane clone catalog is pre 1966.

Markeologist

THANKS for posting T-Mar....I've been scouring my files for that announcement. Not an "A" and "B" team, the 1966 Ford-Hutchinson team (and 67 and 68 BiC teams too) simultaneously had some members riding Anquetil (dark blue) and others riding Geminiani (silver blue) bikes. Here is 1966 team photo stating use of both bikes. It was probably a "sharing the wealth" effort as Geminiani was the team director and Anquetil was the star rider. I've also attached photos of teammates Anquetil and Aimar from 66 TdF that Aimar won (w/ Anquetil's help)...note Anquetil is on dark blue and Aimar is on silver-blue...other photo show the two together with an indication of the bikes they rode, the name on side of hat. That clue as well as the head badge even works on black and white photos! AND YES...places date of the MICMO Geminiani and Gitane catalogues as before 1966!!!

Markeologist

ok, last post (for now anyway)…@Matador6, if you are looking for how you should build up your bike, I think you can safely rely on what is presented in the "no later than 1965" MICMO Geminiani/Gitane catalogs for the top of line No. 100 (as stated several times, catalogs are identical except when the brand is referenced). Your frame has a Stronglight headset which would suggest it had the mix of French and Italian components listed (but check stack height, maybe could fit Campy). Top 63s hard to find and expensive, bike likely had the Dural Forge Mafacs (pre-Racer and Compeition embosssed models) anyway. Beyond Top 63s (if you go that route), perhaps hardest parts to locate will be Campy Record (pre-NR) derailleur and Stronglight 63 crankset...enjoy the hunt!

Matador6

@Markeologist @T-Mar Gentlemen, again, thank you so much for this information. This has all been a huge help. So, looking at my bike (1962 or earlier) here is what I'm tracking for possible frame builders from what I've gathered from various sources;
Gitane (MICMO) - probable, frame characteristics seem to match so far (I will post more pictures of my frame when I get a chance)
Carre - No, seat stay cap construction doesn't match
Cizerone - No, serial number placement doesn't match plus Cizerone contract starts later (1966)
Lejeune - Unknown, but Lejeune frames may have been made by Carre at this time
Mercier - Unknown
Italian manufacturer - No, Italian made Geminianis are produced after Cizerone contract presumably ends (1970's??)

So, are their any defining characteristics that I should look for to confirm or deny Lejeune or Mercier manufacturing?
@Markeologist my bike is labeled "R. Geminiani Special" as opposed to the normal "Raphael Geminiani". Does you RG catalog mention this "special" model or say anything about it?
Again, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Markeologist

If you can still read the Geminiani labeling, seems to me you have a Geminiani….also, the less faded paint behind where a screwed on head badge used to sit screams Geminiani. As I have said, other than the references to brand, my "1965" Geminiani catalog is exactly the same as the Gitane catalog posted by GitaneUSA (mislabeled as 1967). I bought my catalog in France and I don't think many Geminiani bikes came over to USA, especially before bike boom so finding a Geminiani catalog is going to be tough. Knowing that MICMO produced both Gitanes and Geminianis in the mid-1960s, I would go read the catalogs posted by GitaneUSA as they have other 1960s catalogs posted as well. Their "1966" is also mis-dated as Anquetil did not ride a Gitane in 1966 so it is actually 1965 or earlier. As I stated above, your frame has the more finished seat stay cap, similar to white frame here and not the swagged and crimped finish seen contemporaneously on less expensive offerings as seen on blue frame here. I would thus look at the higher end bikes for the type of equipment offered. Because you have a Stronglight headset, I would focus on the Professional in the 1964 catalog or the Champion du Monde in the "1967" catalog (really1965). If the Stronglight is original, your fork tube was likely cut too short to properly fit a Campy headset.

retyred

Picture of my circa 1962 Geminiani.

Matador6

@Markeologist Once again your advice is spot on and very much appreciated. My additional questions about the frame was just to see if anyone had established when Gitane began making the frames that were badged as Geminiani. Even without that information, I will use the Gitane catalog(s) as a guide as best I can, as you recommend. One thing I didn't mention before is that there is a Campy cable clamp that appears to be original that is still on the bike. The good news is that I aleady found a Geminiani headbadge to replace the missing one on my bike.

Matador6

@ retyred Wow! Thank you very much for the photo! That is the very model (and possibly year) as my frame. Can I beg you for some additional, component detail photos or perhaps tell me what components appear to be original? I'm particularly interested in the MAFAC brake model you have, the crank set, etc. Honestly, I have a number of detail questions I'd like to ask, if you don't mind, and any help would be greatly appreciated.

retyred

Will post more pics tomorrow. Happy to assist where possible.

retyred

Here are a few pictures. More to come.

Markeologist

Retyred, nice bike, thanks for posting. That said, Matador6, please note the seat stay finish. Your frame has the more highly finished seat stay cap where the seat stay is cut diagonally and a fitted cap brazed in place (similar but different from the subsequent Carre-style willow leaf shaped cap...see early post in this thread) while retyred's frame has the swagged and crimped seat stay finish. As noted above, the swagged and crimped finish is found on more budget conscious bikes at this time as it did not require the handwork of the seat stay finish as found on Matdor6's frame.

Matador6

@ Markeologist I see what you mean about the crimped seat stay. thank you for pointing that out.
@retyred Thank you very much for the pictures. I guess I spoke to soon about the first picture you posted. I didn't realize that yours was the Olympic model and not the Special model. Still, very informative pictures, especially since my Special is at least 1962 or earlier. The seat stay photo is particularly helpful not only for the construction detail that Markeologist referred to, but also the detailed picture of the rear frame pump bracket is very helpful, as it looks like I will have to try and reconstruct mine (the pegs were ground off mine at some point, but I can see where they used to be). Do you happen to know if your pump is original? Does it have any manufacturer markets on it, by any chance? (the pump is anther list of components I need to track down, of course. Again, thank you very much for the pictures!

retyred

Pump is not original. My RG appears to have several newer components which seem to indicate an upgrade in the early seventies. Example: Wheelset is not original as Locknuts on Campy hubs are marked 'CAM 73'. Rear derailleur is a Shimano Crane, seat post is SR, rims are Mavic.