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1972 Raleigh GP with two serial numbers?

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1972 Raleigh GP with two serial numbers?

Old 10-15-20, 02:44 PM
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64Pete
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1972 Raleigh GP with two serial numbers?

Hi,

So after some discussion and research I’ve got this Raleigh Gran Prix down to 1972 as the model year.

It has Carlton decals on the fork but I guess one shouldn’t get too excited about that.

The big question that remains:

Why the two different serial numbers?

There is a number on the left drop out – 233435

And the other is on the BB shell -- 158975

Has anyone run into this before?

Pics are at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/raleig...57713940800358
Thanks for any info you can provide.

Pete

Last edited by 64Pete; 10-16-20 at 09:40 AM. Reason: can't spell!
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Old 10-15-20, 05:12 PM
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Our local police use to stamp their own numbers when you got a bicycle license even when there was already a serial number.. I would guess the bb number was added. My Dad talked them into not stamping his Raleigh Pro Mark II and recording the SN instead.
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Old 10-15-20, 08:45 PM
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It's a nice one.


But, ummm,... I don't know how to tell you this,... the rear brake is backwards.

That's a really dangerous modification, too, because when need to slow down and squeeze the rear brake lever, you'll actually speed up!
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Old 10-15-20, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
That's a really dangerous modification, too, because when need to slow down and squeeze the rear brake lever, you'll actually speed up!
Many of us prefer to do that to our old Raleighs.


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Old 10-15-20, 08:53 PM
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It's quite common for illegal immigrants to have more than one Social Security number to evade the authorities, I wonder if your Grand Prix made its way here in the trunk of a car?
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Old 10-15-20, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Many of us prefer to do that to our old Raleighs.


I thought that's what you do when you don't have enough cable housing to mount the brake properly.
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Old 10-16-20, 06:03 AM
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Sometimes, when frames are contract manufactured, they have a serial number for both the contractor and client. This is more often the case when the client is a bicycle manufacturer and they receive raw frames on which they perform additional work, usually painting. Though it's less common, additional numbering can also happen with private brands. For instance, Sears bicycles are often stamped by the manufacturer with Sears' product numbers. Owners often confuse these as serial numbers.

1972 was the first really big year of the bicycle boom, when many manufacturers were having trouble meeting the sudden increase in demand. So, from that perspective, a contractor serial number would make sense. However, in this case the number on the bottom bracket shell appears to have applied after painting, based on the corrosion and chipping around the numbers. Consequently, it would appear to be something applied after it left the factory. I've seen bicycles stamped with social security numbers, police registration numbers and at the LBS where I worked, we even applied a shop and mechanic identifier. Every so often, someone will bring me a bicycle which I assembled back in the early 1970s.

The bottom line is that I don't know exactly what the number is, but the evidence suggests it was not factory applied.
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Old 10-16-20, 09:33 AM
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Hi,
First of all, thanks for the replies.
No worries on the rear brake. It gets turned around when I build up the bike.
The number stamped on the rear drop out seems most likely to be the serial number going by other Raleighs of similar vintage.
It's a Worksop made frame if you believe the decals. So a subcontractor seems unlikely.

I had not thought of a number stamped after the fact, such as a licensing or registration number. I suppose that could be.
Just one of those things that makes you wonder why, especially when no quick answer is found on the various bike forums.

Pete
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Old 10-16-20, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
I thought that's what you do when you don't have enough cable housing to mount the brake properly.
In my case, the cable stop is on the right side of the frame, and the cable fitting is on the left side of the caliper, so this is how I prevent the cable from crossing the frame.
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Old 10-16-20, 09:43 AM
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BTW
Why can't I edit the title of my original post?
Will everyone who ever reads this thread know I can't spell serial right every time?

Pete
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Old 10-16-20, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 64Pete View Post
Why can't I edit the title of my original post?
Only the Moderator staff can edit a thread title. Next time, just report it and we'll fix it.
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Old 10-16-20, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
Only the Moderator staff can edit a thread title. Next time, just report it and we'll fix it.
Ok,
I see you fixed my typo.
Thanks!

Pete
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Old 10-16-20, 02:17 PM
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The head badge appears a wee bit crooked as well. Must've been a Friday afternoon build, following a three-Watney's lunch.
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Old 11-11-20, 12:15 AM
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Sorry to bump this up, but the OP PM'ed me about a week ago for my opinion, so I thought I'd reply here:

The BB stamping does not match the typeface I'd expect to see from Raleigh's stamping tooling. Moreover, Raleigh stamped their frames first, then painted them. This one was obviously stamped after painting, which leads me to deduce that it's a classic PD desecration of the bottom bracket For Your Protection™ (and for your 10 buck registration).

Incidentally, long ago, I theorized that Raleigh had a 5-digit BB serial in the 1960's that looked like this. I had a '62 Raleigh frameset with it...and now that I look at it, it just dawned on me that it was stamped after the fact. I believe it came from PA too (it's been way too long for me to remember) and I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a very similar typeface.



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Old 11-11-20, 12:18 AM
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^^^^^ The numbers on those two bikes indicate that they both voted.







(Okay I'll shut up now.)
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Old 11-11-20, 12:54 AM
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Weren’t wrap around stays found on Gazelle made products? That might also explain two serial number sets.....

According to Kurt Kaminer’s site; “The Headbadge.
https://www.kurtkaminer.com/raleighg...x_holland.html

Gazelle models can occasionally carry two sets of serial numbers. Gazelle made products often had standard 24 tpi BSC threaded bottom brackets. This is a plus for upgrading the crankset. I don’t know if they used the Raleigh proprietary threading on the headset.

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Old 11-11-20, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by elcraft View Post
I don’t know if they used the Raleigh proprietary threading on the headset.
My 74 Gazelle has a 24TPI headset and bottom bracket.

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Old 11-11-20, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by elcraft View Post
Weren’t wrap around stays found on Gazelle made products? That might also explain two serial number sets.....

According to Kurt Kaminer’s site; “The Headbadge.
https://www.kurtkaminer.com/raleighg...x_holland.html

Gazelle models can occasionally carry two sets of serial numbers. Gazelle made products often had standard 24 tpi BSC threaded bottom brackets. This is a plus for upgrading the crankset. I don’t know if they used the Raleigh proprietary threading on the headset.
Gazelle made a lot of Grand Prix models with wrap-around stays, not the other way around.

The second serial on Gazelle-built GPs, like Raleigh, were under the paint and used a different stamp.

-Kurt
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Old 11-15-20, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Sorry to bump this up, but the OP PM'ed me about a week ago for my opinion, so I thought I'd reply here:

The BB stamping does not match the typeface I'd expect to see from Raleigh's stamping tooling. Moreover, Raleigh stamped their frames first, then painted them. This one was obviously stamped after painting, which leads me to deduce that it's a classic PD desecration of the bottom bracket For Your Protection™ (and for your 10 buck registration).

Incidentally, long ago, I theorized that Raleigh had a 5-digit BB serial in the 1960's that looked like this. I had a '62 Raleigh frameset with it...and now that I look at it, it just dawned on me that it was stamped after the fact. I believe it came from PA too (it's been way too long for me to remember) and I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a very similar typeface.



-Kurt
Kurt,
Thanks for posting. I don't know if I was hoping for the serial numbers to denote something special or not.
The Police dept stamping on the bottom bracket seems plausible.
The bike, actually frame minus wheels, was in Maryland when I got it.
I'll have to find time to put it together now that the "mystery" is solved.

Thanks again

Pete
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