What might this bike be?
 

Greetings. We haven't posted for a while, but we're starting to take some donations again and this bike showed up. One of our volunteers rescued it from a pile set out for scrappers in his neighborhood. It's pretty rough, having suffered a repaint with silver over a red primer. Looks like a spray can job. The lug work says it was a decent bike at one time. Campy head set, Campy dropouts, Dura Ace brakes, Shimano 600 drive train. I've stripped some paint and there is no serial number on the bottom bracket, head tube, along the chain stays or anywhere on the the rear dropouts. Anywhere else to look?

The bike was all chrome, including the fork. You can see traces of the chrome in a couple of the photos. There are two holes where the head badge was located. I'm thinking it's a Schwinn that had the serial number on the head badge, but I am an amateur at i.d. What say ye?
As usual, thanks for your input.

Fred
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Schwinn Paramount, I reckon. But those usually have serial #s on the rear left dropout. Hmm.

Seat post size? Could it be a Motobecane Le Champion or Team Champion? French stuff? WAG!

[MENTION=208629]rcommbikes[/MENTION]

That looks like Schwinn primer but if the paint over it is crappy then. :foo:

We need a pic of the HB holes and of the NDS rear DO, if its a Schwinn there should be S/N remnants somewhere, BB or DO.;)

I'm hoping/voting Paramount too.

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looks a production item from circa 1970 which has experienced some reworking

another spot to check for markings is steerer

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the forum has a number of members who are Paramount owners; perhaps an owner could post the measurement between the fastener holes for the head emblem so that this could be checked against the subject machine...


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Agreed, it looks like a Paramount with some braze-ons added before a repaint. No chance it ever had the serial number stamped on a head badge as that only happened on Japanese built frames. If it was in fact a chrome Paramount it would have looked something like this when new. You won’t want to let it hit scrap yard, Paramounts are quite nice and a worthy project if you’re so inclined.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c80c057f1.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...505a661fa.jpeg
Serial number should be located here but you never know if a new dropout was brazed on at some point. As Juvela says check the stearer tube, the number should be stamped there as well.

If the frame isn't fully chromed, the head tube lugs and fork crown would have been chromed, but not the seat/top tube lugs. Seat stay caps say Paramount to me; no eyelets and the curve of the fork look like a P13 road racing model.
My size!

Scrapper? I cringe to think of all the high-quality vintage frames and components that have met that fate at the hands of people who do not know about or appreciate fine bicycles.

Thanks for the reminder about the steerer tube. Numbers there are P3 and K72127. Spacing for head badge holes is 3 cm measured with a cloth tape.
There is no trace of a serial number or chrome anywhere on the rear dropouts. Frame is 67 cm. I’ll post more photos soon, but wanted to get this SN info out there.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...32b7143d7.jpeg
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Looks like Paramount FTW. ;)

Still doesn't explain no RDO # :foo:

So 127th frame, Oct. 72?

No chrome on the DO's may explain no S/N #, may have been changed out and just painted.

K72 = October 1972
I measured 32mm with a cloth tape from rivet head to head, so 30mm at the head tube is about right for a Paramount.:thumb:

Yep, missed skipping the "I", again. :crash:

This may be a sensitive topic and, if so, I apologize in advance. But when I see a frame that has had its serial number obscured or removed and is repainted with or without different decals I immediately think that a transaction took place with that bicycle where the "seller" was unaware and went uncompensated. There was a thread here recently where a guy was asking about his repainted "Cinelli" with no serial numbers and the wrong seat cluster and the specter of theft, disguise, and resale never came up despite the thread continuing for several pages.

Does the C&V community have a position(s) on how to deal with collectible cycles that may have been victim to an illegal transaction somewhere in their past? Is it just not talked about? In the art and antique world some provenance can be expected with items of value, are C&V bikes reaching a similar level?

Plenty of red flags on the "Cinelli" to be sure but the seat cluster was definitely not one of them, The "B" model used that and that's where we use the collective to do our best to get to the bottom of things.

We all hold each other to a pretty high standard and when warranted the alarm will sound. Most here are well enough known that the process supports the genuine intent most of the time.

We do regularly question many things and will call BS when we think we see it but the level of knowledge and discussion usually sorts it out.

Provenance is very hard to come by on most bikes as they are very transient, break, get damaged, repainted, reworked and much else.

Theft is one of those things, if you can't prove it, it is not going to be the first road you go down, you better have more to go on than lack of evidence and knowledge or just confusion and speculation.

Theft is not something we encounter with the bikes we deal with, most of us know a sketchy seller, situation, etc. before the bike ever gets here.

Your concern is certainly valid but not as much so here, IMHO.

One thing is for sure, if you post a pic of the rear dropouts and how they transition into the stays, we can confirm or rule out Paramount in an instant. Paramounts used copious amounts of filler material on these joints and they don't look like anything else out there (to my eye). FWIW, I believe you've got a 70s Paramount there.

DD

Will strip
 

I’ll do some more paint stripping on the dropouts today.

Post is 27.2

The fork is without a doubt original to the frame, especially being that tall and has K72127 which also lines up and is undoubtedly a Paramount.

Dropout brazing photos
 

The paint is tenacious. Took quite a while to get this clean. I'm a retired chemist and can tell you that the good stuff was all taken off the market, with good reason.
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It will likely not show us much if anything but maybe show work from the DO being replaced or ?

This could also be a case of a factory misstep where the DO was simply not stamped, unlikely but we know never to see never. ;)

The bad part
 

Two dimples on the top of the top tube. Also show the seat post bolt and the axle adjusters.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a7d8007e4.jpeg
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Very interesting, looks to me like the DS seatstay is different at the end where it meets the DO, but that doesn't explain the NDS DO not having a #.

Also the red primer shows it all to be mostly original and the DO's appear to be age correct and likely original too.

Still betting Paramount. ;)

Occam's Dropouts
 

Steerer serial dates the forks to 1972, while the Portacatena DS dropout suggests a date after 1977. Either the DOs were both changed out, or it could be mismatched forks and frame?

I think the dropouts were swapped: Campy Portacatena shorties for the original Campy longboys...no idea why this would have been necessary (and could have been for "fashion" I suppose) but the rest of the frame does not look like a match to the "early '80s" DOs, more like this frame/fork is vintage 1972 as suspected EXCEPT there were also WB bosses added, maybe when the DOs were replaced. Do the shifter bosses seem OEM?

Also note the nutted brakes and "whale-tail" Nervex Pro headlugs, plus what I think are the OEM top-of-BB cable guides but NOW the cables are running UNDER the BB, this has been "updated" sometime after about 1978.