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Legnano Fake?

Old 05-27-21, 11:17 AM
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Legnano Fake?

Is there any genuine Legnano roadbike model that do not have the serial number? Do not have the Legnano engraving in the whole bike or fork at all except for the decals.
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Old 05-27-21, 11:28 AM
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Old 05-27-21, 11:30 AM
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If there aren't any cast bits that say Legnano, and if the typical seatpost binder isn't present,, and if there isn't a serial number where it's normally found, and only the decals say Legnano and there's a possibility that they were added or redone...well, that would seem to bring up some questions whether it's a Legnano.

Especially without pictures.

-Kurt
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Old 05-27-21, 01:03 PM
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a non-fake but non-Bozzi produced Legnano

-----

this Legnano badged condorino from the 1960's came up recently

one can see from its Agrati lugs, crown, plate style bridges, under top tube brake cable routing & bullet seat stay tops that is is clearly a Chiorda product

the only Bozzi frame touch is the tangs of the frame ends being wider than the taper tubes into which they go

i certainly do not consider it a "fake" Legnano since it appears clear it was ordered by Bozzi

suspect they wanted a super economy condorino in their range for dealers to have something which could compete on price with department store bicycles

Rizzato did something similar with their Atlantica marque

note that it carries a transfer indicating sale from the Lazzaretti shop of Roma









frame bits -

Agrati lug pattern "AM" nr. 000.8040/U

bulge-formed head is item nr. 000.8049

seat lug is item nr. 005.8049

shell is item nr. 000.8507

crown is item nr. 000.8058 and part of the "SPORT" ensemble nr. 000.8050/E/U/

---

[not my cycle and no means to secure additional imagery]

-----
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Old 05-27-21, 01:24 PM
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My late sixties Gran Premio has a two digit number (18) stamped on the drive side seat tube lug. I am not even sure what that number means. I should add that I have looked and looked for a serial number and there is no serial number nor are there any pantographs. There is, however, a head badge.



With that in mind, it seems reasonable to assume that the bike could be authentic even if there was no identifying markings.
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Old 05-27-21, 01:48 PM
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Randy, that bike is a fake Legnano and I need you to send it to me.
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Old 05-27-21, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
Randy, that bike is a fake Legnano and I need you to send it to me.
.There is something special about Legnano bicycles and I have owned three...

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Old 05-27-21, 04:47 PM
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Iíve had only one.


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Old 05-27-21, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
I’ve had only one.


[/
Whoa. That’s beautiful.

I just picked up a Frejus frame in Lizard yellow, and that same seat lug as my Roma. Going to be a nice looking bike when it’s done.

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Old 05-27-21, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
My late sixties Gran Premio has a two digit number (18) stamped on the drive side seat tube lug. I am not even sure what that number means. I should add that I have looked and looked for a serial number and there is no serial number nor are there any pantographs. There is, however, a head badge.



With that in mind, it seems reasonable to assume that the bike could be authentic even if there was no identifying markings.
-----



Don Randolfo,

there is currently a GP abob upon the waves of the bay whose owner states it is a 1960 model. it has a number 10 marked on the drive side of its seat lug -





member Mark Condorino is sure to know the meaning of this marking...

-----
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Old 05-28-21, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----



-----
Any clue what the seatpost binder bolt setup here is? I have a Legnano (frame only) without one, and this looks sort of hacky compared to Randy's, yet functional.
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Old 05-28-21, 04:26 AM
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The two digit number stamped on the seat tube lug is not a serial number. Rather, the Condorio site explains it this way...

"The two numbers stamped on the back or side of the seat lug on Legnano frames after 1966 were not serial numbers and by no means should they be confused with ‘team bikes’ or representative of the year the frame was produced or the size of the frame. They also do not reference the Legnano model as I have found the same two digits on both city bikes and road bikes alike.
After many years of looking for an explanation, I have learned that these numbers were referenced to the specific ‘production unit’ within the Bozzi Spa factory that produced the frame. In other words a tracking reference for QA purposes and perhaps also to monitor the overall productivity of the production unit."

Based on that information, I came to believe that the vintage of my bike was 1968. To this day, I am not sure of the vintage, only the make (Legnano) and model (Gran Premio). But I am sure that it is my favorite bike (I own four vintage road bikes these days, not counting two project bikes that are just waiting).
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Old 05-28-21, 06:56 AM
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My Roma has the numbers stamped on the underside of the bottom bracket. Mark @Condorino dated it ~1969/1970.
3 digits plus the letter R, indicating it to be a Reynolds frame
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Old 05-28-21, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
If there aren't any cast bits that say Legnano, and if the typical seatpost binder isn't present,, and if there isn't a serial number where it's normally found, and only the decals say Legnano and there's a possibility that they were added or redone...well, that would seem to bring up some questions whether it's a Legnano.

Especially without pictures.

-Kurt
I am just doing my round of 10 posting. The picture and if with luck video of the bike will be shared here soon for the expert advice and view.
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Old 05-28-21, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by geoebk View Post
I am just doing my round of 10 posting. The picture and if with luck video of the bike will be shared here soon for the expert advice and view.
No worries, looking forward to the pics.

-Kurt
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Old 05-28-21, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by billytwosheds View Post
Any clue what the seatpost binder bolt setup here is? I have a Legnano (frame only) without one, and this looks sort of hacky compared to Randy's, yet functional.
A colleague in Italy finally resolved the mystery around the two numbers that Legnano stamped on the seat lug when the actual serial numbers on the seat lug ended in mid 1966. In the photo at the top of this thread the number '10' represents the production from the first quarter of 1970. '26' referencing the second quarter of 1966 is the earliest marking that has surfaced and '13' representing the first quarter of 1973 being the last found so far.
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Old 05-28-21, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Condorino View Post
A colleague in Italy finally resolved the mystery around the two numbers that Legnano stamped on the seat lug when the actual serial numbers on the seat lug ended in mid 1966. In the photo at the top of this thread the number '10' represents the production from the first quarter of 1970. '26' referencing the second quarter of 1966 is the earliest marking that has surfaced and '13' representing the first quarter of 1973 being the last found so far.
This is, at last, interesting, however; my bike bears the two digit stamp 18. Does this mean that my Grand Premio is from the second quarter of 1973? I, actually, find that kind of surprising. Why..?

The one thing that really puzzles me is when did the stenciled on down tube art disappear, to be replaced with a decal? I thought the painted stencil version indicated a sixties, or earlier, vintage...





The front mounted seat post binder bolt - when did it disappear? Once again, I thought that this style of seat post clamp bolt did not find its way into the 1970s. They are unusual and getting hard to find.

Then, I turn to one of my favorite Legnano features, the lovely head badge. I see most seventies bikes sporting a head tube decal rather than a badge...



I got my Legnano as a frame, fork and head set only. I have since collected as many original components as I can find for it, including an embossed head set, a pantographed Campy high flange hub set, and a Legnano pantographed cottered crank set. This bike is one of my favorites of all time and the more I can learn about it is important to me. Any help or advice that you can share would be much appreciated.
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Old 05-29-21, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
This is, at last, interesting, however; my bike bears the two digit stamp 18. Does this mean that my Grand Premio is from the second quarter of 1973? I, actually, find that kind of surprising. Why..?

The one thing that really puzzles me is when did the stenciled on down tube art disappear, to be replaced with a decal? I thought the painted stencil version indicated a sixties, or earlier, vintage...



The front mounted seat post binder bolt - when did it disappear? Once again, I thought that this style of seat post clamp bolt did not find its way into the 1970s. They are unusual and getting hard to find.

Then, I turn to one of my favorite Legnano features, the lovely head badge. I see most seventies bikes sporting a head tube decal rather than a badge...

I got my Legnano as a frame, fork and head set only. I have since collected as many original components as I can find for it, including an embossed head set, a pantographed Campy high flange hub set, and a Legnano pantographed cottered crank set. This bike is one of my favorites of all time and the more I can learn about it is important to me. Any help or advice that you can share would be much appreciated.
Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
This is, at last, interesting, however; my bike bears the two digit stamp 18. Does this mean that my Grand Premio is from the second quarter of 1973? I, actually, find that kind of surprising. Why..?

The one thing that really puzzles me is when did the stenciled on down tube art disappear, to be replaced with a decal? I thought the painted stencil version indicated a sixties, or earlier, vintage...

The front mounted seat post binder bolt - when did it disappear? Once again, I thought that this style of seat post clamp bolt did not find its way into the 1970s. They are unusual and getting hard to find.

Then, I turn to one of my favorite Legnano features, the lovely head badge. I see most seventies bikes sporting a head tube decal rather than a badge...

I got my Legnano as a frame, fork and head set only. I have since collected as many original components as I can find for it, including an embossed head set, a pantographed Campy high flange hub set, and a Legnano pantographed cottered crank set. This bike is one of my favorites of all time and the more I can learn about it is important to me. Any help or advice that you can share would be much appreciated.

The stamping '18' on your Gran Premio would reference production from the first quarter of 1968. From approx. 1948 to 1950-51 the Legnano logo was a decal transfer on either side of the downtube with multi-coloured bands between the two logos. This may have been done to commemorate Bartali's TdF win in 1948 although it is not certain. Beginning in 1950 the 5 white bands bordered in black and gold striping were added to the seat tube, the downtube Legnano decal was dropped and it was painted or rather stencilled on either side of the downtube in red and white. Why they chose to stencil the logo rather than continue to use a water slide decal as per all of the other markings on the frame is not known.

The Legnano logo changed on or about 1970 from the sausage or hotdog shape to a parallelogram shape . . . although I have come across a few Roma frames into the very early 70s that were still adorned with the older stencilled logo. These exceptions may have to do with the closing of the expansive Legnano factory on the Strada Statale 527 as the entire company’s operations moved to the location at 1 Piazza Emilio Bozzi. Other exceptions or changes to the Frejus brand may also have to do with the factory consolidation in 1971. The reason for the 'modernizing' of the Legnano logo was probably down to marketing as competition overall heated up for the Italian brands. The Legnano logo changed again on or about 1980, eliminating the parallelogram framing and the adoption of a more modern typeface or single letters on the downtube.

Below is the Legnano Roma Olimpiade pictured in the 1972 Bozzi SpA catalog that was most likely printed in late 1971 for the year end bicycle fair in Italy. You can see the new parallelogram shaped logo on the downtube however the old logo still adorns the top of the brochure page. You can also see the this Roma still features that unique Legnano seat lug that incorporates the seat binder bolt ahead of the seat tube and below the top tube. This characteristically and unique Legnano detail drifted on into the very early 70s with the Roma and perhaps some other models however it was completely gone by 1973 by all accounts, replaced by the more conventional placement of the seat post bolt at the rear of the seat lug.



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Old 05-29-21, 11:10 AM
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@ Condorino...

Thanks very much for sharing the information. I am very pleased to know that the bike is of late sixties, rather than seventies, vintage. My Gran Premio is my favorite bike in my collection of four (had a lot more at one time but four is more than enough these days).

I must, however, wonder why Legnano chose to do away with the serial number for bikes like mine. That, to me, makes little or no sense. I can't understand why people like vanilla ice cream either:-)

Now, the only thing I need to figure out is how to stencil on a set of down tube decals. I have resisted the ever present urge to paint this lovely old road bike, torn between shiny like new or telling its patina described history of use. Guess I will continue to give it some more thought.
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Old 05-29-21, 03:48 PM
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Randy, Greg Softley sells the decal you’re looking for. Might save you the trouble of painting by hand.

https://www.cyclomondo.net/legnano
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Old 05-29-21, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by satbuilder View Post
Randy, Greg Softley sells the decal youíre looking for. Might save you the trouble of painting by hand.

https://www.cyclomondo.net/legnano
Thanks very much for the heads up on this. I have bought decals, stickers to be more precise, from Greg before and found his product to be excellent. I just might go that route but sadly, or not, I am still unsure about repainting the bike. The patina and I (also bearing a considerable patina) are old friends. Still, I do like the looks of pristine and my Leggy would be a good candidate for a repaint. Aggg - this has been swimming around in my head for years.
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Old 05-30-21, 07:16 AM
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I like your Legnano just the way it is Randy. I had thought you were just looking to replace the downtube transfers.
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Old 05-31-21, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
No worries, looking forward to the pics.

-Kurt
Still trying to do my rounds honestly. 😂. The forums even forbid the new members from posting link. 😉 Wherever managing this bike forum does know a good way to keep the site active 👏👏👏.

Coming soon 🙏
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Old 05-31-21, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by geoebk View Post
Still trying to do my rounds honestly. 😂. The forums even forbid the new members from posting link. 😉 Wherever managing this bike forum does know a good way to keep the site active 👏👏👏.

Coming soon 🙏

After finding your post, I thought Iíd take a minute to explain to you why you canít post a picture yet. We are by far the largest bicycle themed forum in the world. And, therefore, we are a ripe target for spammers to attempt to advertise their wares. In an effort to reduce the amount of spam that we have to deal with, we have instituted a few policies.

One of which is withholding new forum members from posting pictures or links until they have made 10 posts. That gives the moderation staff enough time to sort out most of the spammers from the real forum members. Another measure we have installed is a 5 posts in 24 hours limit to new forum members. Once you get past 10 posts both of those restrictions are automatically removed.

Without these policies, our forum, like many others that no longer exist because of being inundated with spam, would be overrun.

Forums want new threads and posts and welcome new forum members. This may upset some people and they may vent about it. We understand. An easy way to get your post count up is to go to our Introductions forum and introduce yourself. Then maybe take a couple of minutes and greet some other new forum members.
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