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Dia Compe "Silver" bar end shifters issue

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Dia Compe "Silver" bar end shifters issue

Old 05-31-21, 11:10 AM
  #1  
Schlafen
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Dia Compe "Silver" bar end shifters issue

I have recently built myself a parts bin commuter bike and in order for the mixing and matching to work, I picked up a set of Dia Compe Power Ratchet "Silver" ( Rivendell?) 10 speed bar end shifters, as I had no brifters that would work with this combo and this would be the most inexpensive option.
T6000 RD + GRX 10 speed FD and cranks.
The combo works perfect if I only shift 9 cogs at the rear but when needing the 10th, lowest gear, no go.
The shifter doesn't have enough cable pull. There's only a minuscule amount of cable pull required for it to shift on the largest cog as when the lever is maxed out the chain touches the largest cog but not jumping over. I can't seem to work it out which just pisses me off considering that it's such a basic setup.
I messed with limits, B screw cable tension etc.
Hanger is straight as checked and adjusted by LBS.
Cable housing is standard issue indexed gear cable housing, not that it matters a lot.
Are these bar ends road only? The T6000 'trekking' derailleur has MTB pull according to Shimano, but Dia Compe doesn't list any info on the shifters, only that they should be 10 speed compatible. I like this derailleur a lot as it's smooth and doesn't require a lot of tension because it dorsn't have a clutch and feels a lot like a Ultegra 8000 GS, which I know very well.






Before I permanently modify the shifter any input is greately appreciated.
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Old 05-31-21, 12:22 PM
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Can you grab the cable when it’s in the second to largest cog and manually pull it onto the largest cog? If so, that will confirm that aside from the cable/shifter interface, the RD is working properly and will shift across the cassette.

Suggest you make sure that the shifter/cable orientation for the smallest gear is optimized: cable should be taught and not slack in the smallest cog.

If it still won’t shift into the largest cog, might try putting the cable on the other side of the pinch bolt to see if that changes the geometry enough to make it work well together.
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Old 05-31-21, 12:35 PM
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^^^^^ I like that response.
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Old 05-31-21, 12:54 PM
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Shadow rear derailleurs require more cable pull than their more traditional counterparts. It's unlikely that your combination will work if you haven't gotten it yet.
Also, double check that the cable in in the groove under the clamp. Might be that.
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Old 05-31-21, 12:55 PM
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Looks to me like you just need a tiny bit more cable pull. How about undoing the bolt at the derailleur and tightening it just a bit more? Chances are the smallest cog in the rear has enough stretch that it will just pop into place.

There is nothing you can do to modify the shifter that would change this, bar just ordering 10-speed Microshift MTB bar-ends.
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Old 05-31-21, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
Can you grab the cable when itís in the second to largest cog and manually pull it onto the largest cog? If so, that will confirm that aside from the cable/shifter interface, the RD is working properly and will shift across the cassette.

Suggest you make sure that the shifter/cable orientation for the smallest gear is optimized: cable should be taught and not slack in the smallest cog.

If it still wonít shift into the largest cog, might try putting the cable on the other side of the pinch bolt to see if that changes the geometry enough to make it work well together.
Thanks for the reply and suggestions.

Limits adjusted manually without the cable pretensioning the derailleur, it does move across the whole cassette, tried the cable pull by hand and it shifts no problem, the derailleur seems to move across the cassette with no issues when done manually because I can pull the necessary amount of cable by hand.

Also the cable is snug, not extremely tensed but there is no slack whatsoever, I can adjust cable tension from the downtube cable stops, as well, if needed and both, snug and very tight cable, shift to the same point and then stop.

I have tried, as suggested, moving the cable to the other side of the pinch bolt but it shifts to the same point and then stop.
I am pretty sure that 10 speed road and mtb, with some exceptions, are compatible so I am still left scratching my head.

My next move would be to take apart the shifter and check if everything is correctly assembled just in case, but as I shift it into the 2nd to last cog, the lever seems to bottom out on the pod.

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Old 05-31-21, 01:22 PM
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Put more tension on the cable so it clears the largest cog without worrying about the smallest one. Then see if it still shifts into the smallest cog.

I temporarily drove an 11-speed Deore derailleur with 6-speed downtube shifters. It required something like 200 degrees of movement so you might just be out of luck.
Replaced them with 11-speed bar-ends and as you can tell, those have a much larger diameter so they pull more cable.

Offtopic: 11-speed friction works great as the cogs are so close together that it becomes almost impossible to mis-shift.





Last edited by JaccoW; 05-31-21 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 05-31-21, 01:48 PM
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Shimano road and mountain 10 speed indexed are not compatible. If your trekking rd is akin to mountain indexing then it should not be compatible with your road shifters. Sounds from your experience that it’s close but not 100%. There are third party adapters which will convert pull amounts, I don’t remember specific brands or if one is offered for this specific application. Might be worth a look though.
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Old 05-31-21, 01:53 PM
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A 9 speed mountain bike derailleur would work with those shifters. They cannot pull enough cable for the one you are using
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Old 05-31-21, 02:05 PM
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You have to use a road derailleur
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Old 05-31-21, 02:55 PM
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I remembered where I've seen these shifters work with a Deore 10 speed indexed RD, at 6:20 :


Later in the video at 23:35 shifting a 10 speed cassette seems to work just fine.
I suspect my minimal loss is in housing flex.
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Old 05-31-21, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Schlafen View Post
I remembered where I've seen these shifters work with a Deore 10 speed indexed RD, at 6:20 :
That is a non-Shadow RD, not going to work exactly like yours.
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Old 06-01-21, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by C9H13N View Post
That is a non-Shadow RD, not going to work exactly like yours.
As far as I can tell ( and google 😁 ) shadow and non-shadow are both Dyna-Sys MTB therefore they should have the same cable pull. Isn't being a shadow type RD just refering to a more inward placement of the RD body, not cable pull?
Dang it MTB components is not my strong suit.
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Old 06-01-21, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Schlafen View Post
My next move would be to take apart the shifter and check if everything is correctly assembled just in case, but as I shift it into the 2nd to last cog, the lever seems to bottom out on the pod.

Take a file to the top of the pod. Itís been done to make bar ends that will sweep a 12s SRAM Eagle cassette. Since you only need 11s, you could probably do a much more graceful job than this.

https://theradavist.com/2017/01/bene...baja-buggie/#1

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Old 06-01-21, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fliplap View Post
Take a file to the top of the pod. Itís been done to make bar ends that will sweep a 12s SRAM Eagle cassette. Since you only need 11s, you could probably do a much more graceful job than this.

https://theradavist.com/2017/01/bene...baja-buggie/#1

that was my last resort, I want to try one more thing before grinding the pod.
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Old 06-01-21, 08:19 AM
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I have gotten a hair more cable pull on DT shifters by adding some thin heat-shrink tubing on the cable right where it bends around the shifter barrel/slot. I don't think that would work on bar-end pods, but it might be worth a try.
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Old 07-11-21, 06:02 AM
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How do I change the thread title? I don't want to start a new one.

Not really liking the fork I have decided to mess with it, of course.
From this

To this:


Also switched from 1" threadless to 1" quill as the new fork was threaded. Fork is french threaded, however a 24TPI headset screwed right on?!?! Yep.
Guess not thst big difference between 24tpi and 25tpi.
Hopefully this will get rid of the little toe overlap it had with the forks it came with, which were generic Peugeot forks. 531 original pantographed forks seem to be impossible to find, so I gave up on restoring this frame to it's former glory.

Left the threadless headset alone. Only replaced the top upper race with top locking nuts from a threaded headset I had. Yep, top race fits very well, the same as original threadless one even though the headsets are different. The 2 headsets use the same sealed bearings.

I had to get creative tightening the locking nuts as I was not willing to cut the steerer just in case. These forks are not available galore unfortunately. But the locking nuts would come loose and preload was bad.
Screwed on the bottom nut, added spacers, top nut and preload. I had to split the spacers and clampe them to the steerer and the preload is spot on.
I will drop the handlebars just dialing in the fit for now.



With the new fork (27" wheel fork) a 63mm drop caliper was needed, so got this Dia Compe caliper, which hurts my eyes. The reason I picked this one over Tektro 559/539 is the cable pull which is on the left side, for a front brake/right lever is perfect.
It is hummongous and looks a bit **** tbh, but seems quite strong. Needs to be tested at speed.





I'm not quite happy with the bar ends, even though they work well and I ended up filing the right hand pod to shift all the way up. It shifts properly but feels vague. Not my cup of tea I suppose.



Borrowed the wheels off my Mendiz for a bit as I had to wait a few months for the hubs I wanted to be available. I will build a set of wheels for it very soon. Silver Miche Primato Syntesi + Silver Sapim Race + Black Ambrosio P20 28H, laced 3x. Don't have any tyres yet but looking at some 35mm tubeless tyres. Depending on how much they baloon, I should be able to get away with 35mm on this frame, rear brake bridge seems to be the limiting factor here.




I will test the new setup over the coming weeks and If I like it (supposed to ride like a magic carpet now) it will probably get some brifters and def new paint at some point, 'sparkly brick' doesn't match my eyes.

Oh yeah, I'm using a custom bb, still testing but it is miles better than current crop of affordable english threaded bb's (that I've used, obviously) for 24mm hollowtech 2 cranks.
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Old 07-11-21, 03:22 PM
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Shimano only mentions "Shadow" and "HG-X" as prominent features for the RD-T6000, so that indicates to me that this isn't a DynaSys model.

Description (from bike-components.de) reads:

"Compatibility: Shimano MTB / City & Touring 10-speed"

Very confusing, as Shimano's 10s MTB rear derailers have DynaSys geometry and are labeled as such on the derailer, and this derailer isn't DynaSys.

This derailer thus must have the same cable pull as ALL of their 9s derailers.

The non-shadow 9s derailers all give the option of decreasing the required cable pull by means of installing the cable to the "wrong" side of the pinch bolt. But this doesn't work for the Shadow model derailers, since both sides of the bolt are apparently the same distance from the arm pivot.


Editing here: Freewheel.co.uk claims that RD-T6000 and SL-T6000 derailers and shifters are DynaSys! ((I doubt this)).

...But the parts are not labeled as such, and Shimano makes no mention of this.

Who you gonna believe?
Do you have any 9s derailers that you could test? Most will shift onto a 36t actually, just won't handle the slack well if it's a short-cage road derailer.

Last edited by dddd; 07-11-21 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 07-11-21, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
Shimano only mentions "Shadow" and "HG-X" as prominent features for the RD-T6000, so that indicates to me that this isn't a DynaSys model.

Description (from bike-components.de) reads:

"Compatibility: Shimano MTB / City & Touring 10-speed"

Very confusing, as Shimano's 10s MTB rear derailers have DynaSys geometry and are labeled as such on the derailer, and this derailer isn't DynaSys.

This derailer thus must have the same cable pull as ALL of their 9s derailers.

The non-shadow 9s derailers all give the option of decreasing the required cable pull by means of installing the cable to the "wrong" side of the pinch bolt. But this doesn't work for the Shadow model derailers, since both sides of the bolt are apparently the same distance from the arm pivot.


Editing here: Freewheel.co.uk claims that RD-T6000 and SL-T6000 derailers and shifters are DynaSys! ((I doubt this)).

...But the parts are not labeled as such, and Shimano makes no mention of this.

Who you gonna believe?
Do you have any 9s derailers that you could test? Most will shift onto a 36t actually, just won't handle the slack well if it's a short-cage road derailer.
Initially I thought it was a road RD but after some digging, it is mtb shifter compatible, according to Shimano:




https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/co...-435&cid=C-432
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Old 07-14-21, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
Shimano only mentions "Shadow" and "HG-X" as prominent features for the RD-T6000, so that indicates to me that this isn't a DynaSys model.

Description (from bike-components.de) reads:

"Compatibility: Shimano MTB / City & Touring 10-speed"

Very confusing, as Shimano's 10s MTB rear derailers have DynaSys geometry and are labeled as such on the derailer, and this derailer isn't DynaSys.

This derailer thus must have the same cable pull as ALL of their 9s derailers.

The non-shadow 9s derailers all give the option of decreasing the required cable pull by means of installing the cable to the "wrong" side of the pinch bolt. But this doesn't work for the Shadow model derailers, since both sides of the bolt are apparently the same distance from the arm pivot.


Editing here: Freewheel.co.uk claims that RD-T6000 and SL-T6000 derailers and shifters are DynaSys! ((I doubt this)).

...But the parts are not labeled as such, and Shimano makes no mention of this.

Who you gonna believe?
Do you have any 9s derailers that you could test? Most will shift onto a 36t actually, just won't handle the slack well if it's a short-cage road derailer.
I've enquired with SJS Cycles here in UK a while ago about the type of derailleur (not 100% sure where I bought mine but it might have been them) and they contacted Shimano directly:

"Shimano have just emailed me back, yes this rear derailleur is Dyna-Sys 10 speed compatible only."

Updated their description accordingly as well:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/deraille...ng-cage-black/


So not sure where I'm loosing cable pull, but as I initially thought it may be them simply being bar ends, as they seem to work fine with a 10 speed mtb derailleur for the chap in the video above, setup on the downtube.

When the cables need replacing, I'll fit the levers to the downtube bosses and see if there's any change. That, of course if it doesn't get brifters first, who knows maybe some Di2 goodies.

I really like this derailleur because it's very smooth, there's no clutch in it and the cable pull is very light. It gives me that Dura Ace 7700 shift feel. Now I'm wondering if I could mke it work with a 7700 brifter, that would be ace for a 7700 brifter to pull an SGS cage. Was it up to 9 speed or 10 speed that road and mtb are compatible?
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Old 07-14-21, 05:18 AM
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Another kludge option in a case like this where the RD can physically move far enough but the shifter canít pull enough cable, is to use a JTEK Shiftmate - you can get them in ratios like 1.05, 1.10, 1.15 etc and would work for friction cable pull changes as well (i.e. RD moves more or less with the amount of shifter movement).
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Old 07-18-21, 04:06 PM
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I have decided to go back to brifters.
Riding in stop and go traffic is anoying with bar ends as I have come to find out.

After modifying the pod it went through all cogs no problems, however, I've had a few instances where I was out of the saddle in the 46/11 leaving a traffic light and being unable to clip in or shift, that's not fun I can tell you that. These Dia Compe shifters will make a comeback soon.




That front caliper allthough it has the necessary reach, it is a monster and kind of unsightly.

Made another discovery today, I do my best to use branded cables and housing and IIRC these were supposed to be Jagwire, no branding on them though.

When I fitted them they were neatly cut and the ends filed, like I do on all my builds.



I was very surprised to see the ends when I removed them, this may actually be the reason I could not shift the last cog.



If you care about reliable and crisp shifting, please make sure you use branded cables and housing. I replaced these with SP41 gear housing, SLR brake housing and some Jagwire on the front brake as I ran out of SLR housing on a Sunday afternoon, of course.
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Old 07-18-21, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fliplap View Post
Take a file to the top of the pod. Itís been done to make bar ends that will sweep a 12s SRAM Eagle cassette. Since you only need 11s, you could probably do a much more graceful job than this.

https://theradavist.com/2017/01/bene...baja-buggie/#1
That is very similar to my solution when I adapted my Schwinn TwinStik stem levers to work with a SunTour VGT. I was building the Peugeot from scratch for my wife, and the Schwinn lever didn't have quite enough pull for the SunTour rear derailleur, even though it would work fine with a Huret Alvit. With today's modern low-compression cable housings, I might not have had a problem.
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Old 09-12-21, 05:21 AM
  #24  
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Crash and refurb?

I crashed...

...a few weeks ago during a group ride when someone suddenly braked in front of me going around a sloped blind junction... choice was between me going down or wiping out a few riders... down I went. Not sure if it was me that made the choice at the time, we'll leave it at that.
Was not riding that fast, 14mph maybe.

Right shoulder, rear derailleur and pedal took most of the impact.

It looked and felt like it was a very, rear heavy, short slide and the right pedal digged into the ground which probably shortened the slide. My helmet never touched the ground, thanking my broad shoulders and right hip for that, the right shoulder particularly, which took most of the impact and would hurt really bad for the next week.
The next day it felt like a full body whiplash, minor road rash on right elbow, hip and ribs as I was riding with long bibs and jacket ( in August I know but it was a 8-9įC morning that day and didn't look promising, turned out to be the correct choice ) some bruising obviously, the worst being behind the knees and hip. It was also raining heavily in case I didn't mention it.

Bike damage: broken right lever body, bent rear derailleur body, cage and hanger, gauged pedal, slightly scratched right handlebar drop.







Small scuff on the saddle as well





Even though the drive side crank and pedal took a lot of impact they seem to be straight and work fine. I would've been more bummed about the pedals failing than the cranks as A600 are no longer available, anywhere.
GRX cranks are also solid and heavy, which is possibly what saved them. I only run them because I had them and because I like 46-30.

Surprisingly, no serious damage to shoes, bibs or jacket. I can use the jacket for commuting no problem. It was a jacket, not a jersey.






I didn't take any pictures at the time because I was too busy convincing the group to continue without me so I could jump on the train. There was nothing they could do anyway and I was very much able to get to a train station on my own. We were about 40 miles away from Birmingham at that point. I could have turned it into a single speed but the shifter body was broken by the impact and I had no front brake so couldn't ride back all the way. I coasted downhill with only the rear brake, towards the train station only to realise at the bottom of the hill that I went the wrong way so had to turn around. F@@@@k.
Was riding in 11-46 after which I cross chained to the small ring but still 11-30 was not low enough for the hill.
Managed to hack the rear derailleur onto a larger cog so I can go uphill by looping the shift cable through the anchor bolt. It was grinding like hell all the way to the train station. Turned a short 2 mile downhill coast into a 2 mile uphill climb ( 8-9%?) and about a 4 mile ride on the micro shoulder of an A road.
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Old 09-12-21, 05:24 AM
  #25  
Schlafen
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Enough with the rambling I had to fix the bike now.
My biggest problem was sourcing a Rival 22 or Force 22 rear derailleur. Jan 2022 was what all retailers advised.
After couple weeks wait and a few cancelled orders with retailers that didn't actually have stock but were still listing as available, I found a Force 22 Wifli rear derailleur in Germany from Bike24, but they do not ship to Uk. Phoned my sister and I routed the derailleur through France.

Brexit was possibly the most stupid decision ever in UK history and this is only the beginning.

Anyways, needed a new lever as well, no used ones available, lucky I know, so got a new lever which now needed a blade swap.





While waiting for the rear derailleur to arrive I had plenty of time to build the wheels which were on backlog.


Took the bike completely apart and frame and fork were sent to be powder coated.

Rear derailleur arrived.


My new derailleur hanger alignment tool from Unior arrived in the meantime together with the bb facing tool and drop out alignment gauges.



Unfortunately they only sent me 1 drop out tool because I am dealing with geniuses.

I have a set of stainless steel mudguards I'm going to fit as well.
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