Help identify this old Italian frame
 

made an offer from Art Bikes that was accepted for this frame, so won't have it in hand for a while, and they don't know what it is either, accept that they think it's 40's or 50's vintage. has internal cable routing for the RD cable. 115mm rear spacing. any ideas?
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fba08d6a96.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...14b4e36c2b.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d2fde915b9.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...090b7ccc96.jpg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...184b244b33.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9ee013cc3e.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c68db6ece6.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b2d8b5722.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3c0079e168.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...131f3d454b.jpg

Some hints here:
https://condorino.com/2016/09/12/leg...r-bolt-design/

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iab MauriceMoss


frame appears constructed of all Agrati bits

suspect you will find it to measure ~56cm c-t-t;
Agrati offered their bulge-formed heads in limited heights/lengths; usually for gents frames the smaller one would build a 56cm; the example employed here is likely the smaller of two gents sizes offered in this pattern at this time; it probably measures ~135mm in height

dropouts appear to be Agrati item nr. 000.8002

fork ends appear to be Agrati item nr. 000.8010

crown a variation of Agrati item nr. 000.8058; in later years the oval opening was smaller in size

OEM seat binder likely a Way-Assauto product

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A heroic project

i guess weird and unusual seems to be where i'm headed. i have pretty much all the parts i need including a set of high flange campy hubs, with the rear hub spaced at 116mm. probably will try to preserve the patina.

With the pump pegs on the back of the seat tube, internal brake cable routing, internal routing for likely a Simplex rear derailleur, you likely have a Sport bike from the late 40s. Single ring up front, 3 speed in back and upright bars with the classy bone grips..

Having the binder bolt in front is somewhat rare post war, and it reminds me of something. If it comes to me I'll post.

If you are interested, for bars. Not affiliated with seller.

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Manubrio-Amb...16.m2518.l4276

reminds me of the scam on Gridplan some time ago by that notorious vintage bike guy out of Boston, who might get out of the Fed Pen this year.

I was told he is out and has sent a few FB friend requests.

I would agree that the general format of the frame would suggest a 'Sportivo' or sport bike and probably a top model given the internal cable routing such as the 'Selvino' from Bianchi although I am not suggesting this is a Bianchi frame. To help you on your way . . . I took a look at a few old catalogs that illustrated the type of seat lug with the binder bolt above the top tube and ahead of the seat post as follows:

Ganna 1939
Gloria 1941
Maino 1936
Bianchi 1941, 1949, 1950, 1953

Again, not suggesting that this frame is from any of these makers as I am outside of my expertise on this one to be sure. Juvela would know if the Bianchi seat lug was proprietary to them . . . the other marques listed may have used the Agrati product(s).

regards,
Mark

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:thumb: :) ;)

thank you so much Mark!

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Fork crown resembles that of my 1962 Bianchi, but I have also heard that low end Bianchis of that day were actually rebranded Chiordas.

Pre war binder bolts in front of the tube are common like dirt. I can't think of a major manufacturer who didn't do that. Most being on top, with Legnano being somewhat of an exception with the bolt below the top tube. Except the lone year of 1925 when Legnano had it on the top.

But post war it is not common. Granted, it is possible this bike could be prewar. Simplex was available then. It's just not very likely. I am 99% confident it is none you listed, the build characteristics of the OP's bike do not match what's typical for Gloria, Ganna, Maino & Bianchi. If I were to make wild-ass guess, I'd say it came out of a small shop in the greater Torino area. Which, I haven't a clue.

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one variable we have not as yet mentioned is shell width

while it is a 99%+ chance that the shell is of seventy mm width there is a slight possibility at it may be of seventy-four mm width

understandably, enthusiasts tend to think of the seventy-four mm as a "Cino thing"
however it was also employed by other italian makers when one gets back far enough in time

if it chanced to be a seventy-four it might narrow the possible manufacturers for the expert detectives...

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as i won't have the frame for probably a month, measuring the shell width will have to wait for now. aside from the pics, this is the seller write-up..

Vintage frame set for sport bikes, light and well manufactured (we don't know the frame builder)
YEAR OF PRODUCTION
From the 40s / 50s
SPECS
Size center to center: 55 cm (seat tube),
57 cm (top tube) 13 cm (head tube)

Headset: 1"

Bottom bracket shell thread: ITALIAN
Rear dropouts spacing: 115 mm
Seatpost diameter: 26,8 mm
Weight: 2930 grams (frame, fork, headset)
Made of: steel tubes

Kind of unrelated but I bought some bits from ArtBikes and there packaging was the best I have ever seen. Super meticulous bordering on over the top.

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thanks very much for this information

the stated frame size and head tube height/length fit right in with the Agrati bulge-formed head dimensions

they typically offered two sizes for gents and two for ladies with the smaller gents being 135mm nominal which yields a frame of 56cm/22" as measured c-t-t


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Lock up your Cinelli's.

with the exception of the integrated headset, it look pretty much like a Bianchi Selvino. i wonder if the pre 1950 Selvinos did not have that headset type?

Definitely not a Selvino. Well, almost. I have learned never to say never. But a Bianchi Selvino had an integrated headset. The head lugs are all wrong. BB is all wrong. Fork crown, dropout treatment, lack of serial on seat cluster. All of it is atypical to Bianchi.

this era of bicycles is way out of my wheelhouse, but as i was WFW (waiting for wife) while she was shopping today, i was perusing my cell phone for bike images from that time period, and admittedly cell phone web searching without glasses can be a less than quality experience, the Selvino looked liked a possible candidate. but as was mentioned previously, that type of sport bike was not limited to Bianchi. i haven't noticed any serial numbers from viewing the seller's listing of images, so perhaps it was a small shop production. thanks for everyone's efforts...

It really doesn't matter who made it, it just oozes cool. I had a Selvino and a Bianchi Sport. Love them and the style of the bike - a city bike with some umpf. My problem is with most bikes in this category, they came in a 55cm, whether you fit or not. I fall on the not end of the spectrum.. :( Even with the 57 top tube, I had to put on a long stem and jack the seat. It just looked wrong. But cheap to make back in the day.

If you have some extra cash, this just popped on ebay. Cambio corsa Sport bike. Has a braze on for the chain guard. So cool.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274833572181

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5c5c68ec53.jpg

wow! not flush with cash at the moment... my wife's car is going to need a new air conditioner compressor i'm thinking, so no more fun for awhile!

68mm BB width. not sure of threading yet.. have to try some cups on for size tomorrow. so, maybe not an old italian frame after all?

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:foo:

certainly puzzling/surprising

perchance iab shall be able to radiate some of his vast illumination...

...or could be as simple as a worker leaning on the facer a bit too heavily...


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i measured inside the shell with my calipers.. looks like 34.9mm but haven't fitted any cups in there yet.