Hi all,

I’m working on an old 60s Mercier for a friend (just painted back to a similar pink/violet original color, although it’s difficult to find exactly the same and it turned out more in the violet tones), trying to preserve its period equipment, only wheels will have a few years more. It came with Campy Gran Sport RD on its dropout hanger (because of the not-threaded hole on the frame), Campy Record FD (model with cable stop), a 52-45 TA crankset, Mafac brakes, Milremo dropbar/seatpost and a wonderful Ideale saddle.

Now, the crankset needs to be replaced as the left arm cracked (!) when screwing it to the axle (didn’t know it could happen). At the same time, the gear ratios need to be lowered given it’s pretty hilly around here and existing gear ratios where rather tough for climbing with a 5s 14/22 freewheel. After a few tests, my friend’s minimum gear ratio target is at least 1,3x-1,4x for the 8-10% steep uphills here around, to be achieved with a new double or triple crankset and a new freewheel. Not an easy task for me given this old frame constraints. Some thoughts:

• Rear derailleur: I’ve read the posts on the Gran Sport RD and conclude that while aesthetically nice, it might not be an appropriate solution to keep it, given its limited chain wrap (18t) capacity and difficult setting with its pivot centered in the middle between pulleys. If changed, however, it should be in the same style, so basically a Campy. I have a Nuovo Record available that offers more flexibility, will it be possible to install it on the same hanger or could some alignment problems arise? The hanger being into the dropout and taking some space, it will not be possible to push the wheel all the way back (see picture).
• Crankset: a new French one would be perfectly in line with the bike. I could get a 50-40 Stronglight that might help and have a compatible bottom bracket with a 118mm spindle, I guess there would be no pb with the front derailleur and rear derailleur should handle it too. I could also get a triple Stronglight 50-40-30 which would be even better for uphills, but in this case not sure if FD and RD could handle it, nor if the spindle length will be long enough.
• Freewheel: one with 24-26 largest cog? I fear a 28 will not fit into the frame if too many speeds and will not be easily handled by the Nuovo Record RD (I understand some have been successful but others not…?).

So, possible solutions:

• double 50-40 Stronglight crank + Nuovo Record RD + 14/26 freewheel, giving a min. gear ratio of 1,5 —> a little above target but hopefully feasible
• triple 50-40-30 Stronglight crank + Nuovo Record RD + 14/24 freewheel, giving a min. gear ratio of 1,25 —> well on target but technically a huge challenge

Any other thought? I know the best way is to try, but your suggestions will be precious before buying the new crankset.

Many thanks.

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the violet colour looks fun - will be good to see additional pictures

dropouts are Juy model 1752/1753

they can be easily adapted to accept a Campag rear mech, if wished, by tapping with a 10.0mm X 1.0 tap and grinding/filing in a stop

catalogue page of 1964 -




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rear mech -

if you and your friend like the idea of retaining a Campag rear mech with the look of the Gran Sport you could go to the Record model which was launched in December of 1963

it has somewhat greater capacity in terms of large cog and wrap

there are also a huge number of other choices here, even if you just limit yourself to Simplex & to Campag products

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chainset -

strongly encourage you to go with a five-pin design with the 50.4mm bolt circle as this affords the mounting of inner chainwheels down to 26T

this pattern has the fringe benefit of keeping with the vintage french look

you mention present chainset is T.A. but do not mention what model

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Is that 52-45 TA crankset the 3-pin model? That's a pretty typical factory installed ring set back in the day (when clearly the hills were smaller or we were stronger or both!). I agree with ^ that a 5-pin TA or Stronglight would give you lots of low gearing options, whether double or triple, and even let you keep that Campy RD and fairly close-ratio freewheel.

Thanks juvela and nlerner
Yes, the Nuovo Record has greater capacity, but is it enough for a triple crank? Even leaving the 14/22 freewheel, with a 50-40-30 crank the teeth capacity needed would be 20+8=28, while the max chain wrap stated for this derailleur is 26. So a matter of a couple of teeth, maybe lengthening a bit the chain to allow big-big and promising to never go small-small could do the trick? In any case the Gran Sport could never handle this.
Here are some additional pictures of the painted frame with new decals as well as the old (broken) TA crankset… it was really nice !

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chainset -

you could stay with what you have and just replace the cracked arm with a used one in good condition

the adaptor ring on the chainset limits the smallest inner chainwheel to 43T

you could keep the same T.A. arms and go with a design where the outer chainwheel mounts directly to the drive side crank arm
this is the Cyclo-Touriste pattern and permits chainwheel dentitions from 26T to 68T

the cycle's present chainwheel arrangement is termed the Professional -

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here is the Cyclotouriste -

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I like the color, ( keeping in mind that digital color representation is quite precarious ) what paint/color did you go with?

those cranks -I would locate a later pair, more material or Velo Orange, any number of different choices. Maybe even a complete Velo Orange chainset. The TA rings are available on eBay for the smaller, I run a few TA sets but TA biased the teeth to the back side, no ledge, ramps or pins to assist on the up shift.

I would consider a 48 or 50 if you went with a new set. 34-36 small.

the frame as noted is for a Simplex, can be modified. The Campag as it sits will be a challenge to catch a 26 even- think about the swing of the mech- you are starting farther out and a bit up- as it swings in it moves UP.
a problem.

I would look for a Simplex long cage. Then a 28 could work... BUT, you are behind the Maginot line, might have French freewheel threading if the rear hub is original...

one must respect the threading! Same issue with wishing to go 3x up front... locating a longer spindle can be an issue. Money can solve a things...

Just reviewed the current chain set you have-
you should go with a complete replacement

the TA assembly you have should become wall art, no smaller ring for that.

I used Spray.bike Memphis color, not exactly a “rose violine”, but in the 60s I understand the tone was more on the violet side, so not the same but not far…
Now, finding a new chainset will be easier than finding just left TA arm, which could be pointless if smaller TA chainrings do not exist. Look at these two Stronglight I might purchase, the double and triple I mentioned earlier. I fear that other triple with smaller rings will not be handled by the RD and maybe even the FD.
Moreover, if the hanger in place works with the current Campy Gran Sport, can I use it with a Nuovo Record too without modifying the frame (which honestly I don’t know how to do)?
At the end, will the two solutions mentioned above be technically acceptable? One with double 50-40 chainrings + Nuovo Record RD + 14/26 freewheel, another with triple 50-40-30 (or lower) chainrings + Nuovo Record or Gran Sport RD + 14/24 or event the original 14/22 freewheel ? Also will the Record front derailleur be able to handle a triple chainset ?
Thank you!

I am working on a 1984 Mercier Bordeaux-Paris. I know ti is not the cool vintage Mercier but it is cool to me. I bought it new in '84. The fork is bent on working to try and straighten it but that may prove useless. If anybody knows of a fork available, please let me know. I finally found the graphic they used to make the head tube decal that was not used like prior to 82 nor on the after 85 stuff. The few years of like 83-85 is what i am dealing with. Any other Mercier info relevant to 1984 would be much appreciated.

So, I managed to get a triple crank and tried a few configurations today, not easy at all. The triple was a 53-40something-36, with it I tried to use the NR and the original 14-22 freewheel. Here are the main points:
1) the alignment for the 2 derailleurs on the hanger is not the same, the original GS being very inward oriented. Here are two pictures from the same perspective showing the difference. Sincerely I don’t know how the GS could work before.
2) the NR has a longer bolt than the GS. The GS bolt bottoms out and tightens properly on the hanger before touching the frame. However, when screwing the NR bolt into the hanger hole it goes beyond and hits the dropout. As the hanger hole is not aligned with the frame hole, the derailleur is pushed outward. Also, rotating the hanger backwards does not provide enough clearance to let the derailleur bolt slide behind the dropout, a question of 1mm. Without tightening too much the derailleur bolt, the NR derailleur keeps some loose, tightening too much and it’s pushed away.
3) When playing with this, at one point the screw tightening the hanger to the dropout nut snapped out, and threads of both the screw and the nut unfortunately crossed. I used a new Allen screw to tighten the nut, but had to force a little and now fear to permanently stuck it.
4) I tried the NR with the triple crank and the 14-22 FW using a chain length just enough tense on the small-small (bending a little above the chainstay without touching it). When I tried the big-big, however, the derailleur did not like it and it stretched too much. I read in other posts that it’s better to have the big-big working than the small-small. Clearly the NR wrap capacity was barely able to cope with 25t, despite the theoretical capacity of 26t.
5) I would have tried to push the wheel back in the dropout and add a chain link, but the hanger nut inserted into the dropout would not let me do it.
Here below are some pictures.
HELP PLEASE !


Hanger screw and nut threads crossed

Used an Allen screw to replace the old one

GS alignment pointing inwards

NR alignment from the same perspective

The NR bolt doesn’t have enough clearance to go behind the dropout. The hanger nut prevents from moving the wheel all the way back

The NR bolt crosses the hanger hole and touches the frame, being pushed outwards

The hanger nut prevents from moving the wheel all the way back

You are looking to handle quite a wide range of gears, and even the Campagnolo Nuovo Record was not intended for that. It was mainly for 52/42 front and 14/24 or maybe 14/26 rear. The total wrap is the capabiilty you need to look at, and for this example that is 52-42+26 -14 = 10+12 = 22 teeth.

What you are talking about building is (in one common version from "the day") 50/40/30 and 14/26, 3 x 5. Here the wrap requirement is 50-30 +26 -14 = 20 + 12 = 32. To accommodate this in vintage derailleurs needs something like a Campagnolo Gran Turismo, a long-cage Simplex, or a long-cage Huret Alvit. The Gran Turismo has a reputation for not very good shifting, but I would tackle it for this if it was in keeping with the French nature of the bike. I don't know what period Simplex would best suit, and the different design of the Prestige series at least (sprung pivots at the top and the bottom) may afford a wider range than we would see in a Campy, even a Record. Also in the Simplex minus column is that the Prestige was made of a plastic called Delrin, which sometimes broke even before the actual part was near 60-ish years old (Prestige and Criterium models were popular on Peugeot maybe 1967 through 1974 or that ballpark. So thought the Delrin Simplexes worked very well in their shifting task, durability was a problem.

Huret designs were more sturdy. Somewhere I read that Huret Alvits did not work too well, but they also never broke so you couldn't justify just running out and buying whatever was better. And they were OEM on some high-end randonneusses, so ... somebody who knew quality liked them and presumably got them to work well. You can find you-tube material on how to set them up. I would tend to go either Turismo for an Italian or Alvit for a Frenchman.

There are a lot of newer design derailleurs which also have at least 32 tooth wraps, and work much better than the Turismo or the Allvit. You have to watch out for chain specifications.

So you may need to jigger wheels around in the dropout, but more fundamentally you need a rear derailleur which has adequate chain wrap capability. With a nice little vintage project like this I would go Simplex if you can find something near-period which is also durable, or an Alvit. For a little more modern take, there is also the Huret Duopar, one of the greatest touring rear derailleurs ever.

If I were in your shoes (which I am not, so please feel free to disregard this post entirely), I would follow juvela 's suggestion and modify the derailleur hanger. It will bring the derailleur down and inward, both of which will help in shifting to bigger cogs. It will also allow you to move the wheel further backward, which will also help.

As an example of what can be achieved without having to resort to long cage derailleurs or triple cranksets: my favorite French bike is a '68 Jacques Anquetil, that has seen more Eroica rides than any other of my bikes. I have been playing with it to get the maximum out of it, gearing-wise. The first build was with a Campagnolo NR transmission, 14-28 freewheel and a 49/36 crankset. Gives a 34" lowest gear:



A couple of years later I bought a 122 BCD 37T ring and partly rebuilt the bike with Simplex derailleurs and a Stronglight 50/37 crankset. The price for a better-looking crankset was a 35" lowest gear, which still worked well enough for me.

Road Fan I agree, even using a 14-22 FW that would leave a 28 chain wrap, more than the NR could handle. Maybe I could try adjusting chain length by avoiding extreme crossing, but yes, a longer cage derailleur would be more appropriate… thanks for the tips, in the Campy world there would be the Rally, is it the one you had in mind?
non-fixie nice bike! I couldn’t find a chainset with inner ring smaller than 40, even this I should still have to buy. Maybe tomorrow I’ll try another double with a 14-28 (if I find it) as you did for your bike. As per modifying the derailleur hanger, I have no knowledge at all, what does it mean exactly?

45/22 is a very tall bottom gear. If you can go 13-26 in back, you can use a smaller outer chainring. I run 45-42 / 13-26 on my UO-8, but the 93 gear-inch top end may not be high enough for everyone's tastes. I run 46-38 / 13-25 on the 1959 Capo with a Campag. 980 rear derailleur, which handles the chain wrap and large cog diameter with aplomb.

Just a note to clear up a potential misunderstanding on the TA crank. As with Nervar, Stronglight, and other cranks of a certain age, a chainwheel attaches to the crank via 5 bolts. That chainwheel can be a single or it can be and usually is drilled for a 2nd chainwheel (which allows a 3rd). The TA crank you have is limited in terms of the smallest ring it will accept, but you still can easily get Pro 5 vis outer and inner rings - Plateaux Vintage (specialites-ta.com) - which gives you a choice of rings (with even-numbers of teeth) from 26-52. And in France, I expect TA parts are easily available via ebay, classified advertising, and FB markets.

I say the above because that 36 tooth ring isn't much of a granny gear and not much of a payoff for the work you're doing. I'm a big fan of TA Cyclotouriste (Pro 5 vis), but your best bet may be to get a new TA crankarm.

40-26 would roughly give a gear ratio of 1,5x, a bit higher than targeted. A smaller inner ring (not necessarily lowering the big ring if a double chainset is used) or larger cog would definitely help. As per the chainset, I agree a new TA would be perfect to stay close to the original look (and they are really pretty), but couldn’t find anything interesting for now, I’ll keep searching. The 50-40 Stronglight was the best I could find. I should maybe check its bcd and see if a smaller compatible chainring is on sale somewhere…

Ok, I now understand what tap and grind mean, I read the different posts concerning the conversion from Simplex to Campagnolo dropout, including those from Chas verktyg the French expert and rootboy for the conversion (which I sincerely did not understand also because was unable to visualize pictures).
Basically either you keep the hanger and completely cut the Simplex dropout to allow the NR bolt proper tightening (won’t do it on a nice Mercier frame), either you tap the hole 10x1mm and grind a stop on the Simplex dropout (never done a tap and unsure on hot to file and where to place the stop), either you use a Simplex derailleur (most of them are not nice, the metal ones seem hard to find at reasonable prices).
What about adding a claw extension like the wolf tooth (https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...53fecabe&_ss=r) as I’ve seen in a post ? Yes, sure, not nice to see, but could it be effective? Or too fragile? Hopefully it could resolve the derailleur height and tightening problem?

I also tried a couple of tests on top of the one mentioned earlier using only the 53-40 chainrings of the triple crank + NR + an increased 14-28 FW. With a loose chain on small/small, the big/big combination is reachable but hard to get and the small/big (front/rear) is impossible given the derailleur remains too high and lacks clearance below the cogs. With a 2-links shorter chain the small/big is almost reachable but the big/big is not. I sense that using a 50-40 chainset and a 26 FW (also corresponding to the NR max cog) it could be better, but don’t have them available for tests. Beyond that, the derailleur is still too on the outside and too high. And not properly tightened.

Any suggestion?

Unless you're fussy about matching, it doesn't even need to be a TA arm. Nobody can clearly see both arms at the same time, and make sure any pictures you post are from the drive side.

Haha, definitely a trick that might work Let’s say in this case I’ll stay on the fussy side, the Mercier is worth it.

I feel rather stuck at the moment: don’t dare to tap the dropout hole afraid of ruining the frame, maybe have to find someone, cannot find double chainsets below 40t, have hard times understanding which chainrings might fit possible TA or Stronglight new cranks and unsure if and which other Simplex derailleurs might be of use to obtain the target gear ratio, provided I can find them.
Anyone any other comments/suggestions on the above problems, possible solutions and tests?

It sounds like you want a wide-range drive-train, but your current one is composed entirely of racing components. I would just replace everything, and make it all-French (except for Japanese freewheel) since it's a French bike, and that way you can leave the dropout intact. Of course, this will take some money, but just pay it and make yourself happy and later you won't even remember how much it cost. I have been using a Simplex SX410GT wide-range derailleur for several years and it has worked great. There are also several nice vintage French wide-range cranks. TA Cyclotouriste uses the same arms as yours but with different rings. Nervar 631 and Stronglight 49 also are compatible with TA rings. Stronglight 99 is a later design with different rings. With any of these cranks, plus a wide-range derailleur, you'll have a lot of latitude on the gearing.

This is a fair solution, thanks. On a purely aesthetic side, when compared to the nice Campy transmission group in place, Simplex derailleurs don’t look nice, but then it’s a matter of tastes. What is sure is that this frame was built for them. On a functional side I guess that opinions vary and there are fans on both sides on this forum. The Disraeli guy comments on Simplex are not very enthusiastic. I have the SX410 on two 70s Peugeot, it has some plastic parts but it’s look is more acceptable than many other models and according to velobase the T model would have the capacity needed as you rightly mentioned. Prices look however quite expensive for such a group, even if I wanted to buy the RD only and use it with Campy FD and shifters (is it possible btw?).
I’m a bit confused on TA cranks and understood that my crank would not accept smaller chainrings, guess I’ll have to give a closer look, not so much info on TA out there…
All Simplex and French bike experts (you are a lot on BF), be welcome to join this thread.

Your TA crank is called the Pro 5-vis ("5-bolt" in French), and uses two sets of bolts, 5 for the inner set and 6 for the outer set. It is somewhat cumbersome but very adaptable, and also very classic. The inner set of 5 bolts is very close to the base of the crank arms, the bolt circle diameter (BCD) is tiny at 50mm.
TA made 3 sets of chainrings for the Pro 5-vis cranks:
Criterium (yours): This was for racing. It requires the adapter, which bolts onto the crank with 5 bolts. The chainrings then attach to the outer part of the adapter with 6 bolts. The smallest chainring is 44 teeth. 152mm BCD chainrings. They also made an outer chainring with 2 sets of bolt holes, that bolts directly to the crank.
Randonneur: The outer chainring has 2 sets of bolt holes. It bolts directly to the crank with 5 bolts, so no adapter. The inner chainring then bolts onto the outer chainring with 6 bolts. The BCD of the rings is 116mm and the smallest chainring is 36t.
Cyclotouriste: Same system as the randonneur, the outer chainring has 2 sets of bolt holes and attaches directly to the crank. The only difference is that the BCD of the inner chainrings is 80mm, and the smallest ring is 26t. This is the most popular of the vintage TA chainrings, it is often used for triple cranks.
This is a bit complicated, but there are illustrations which show the different configurations.

I have been a bit surprised by the cost of French derailleurs on Ebay lately, even the low-end ones. I would try BF first, or Classic Rendezvous. Maybe you can find a long cage for your SX410. I have also used Simplex LJ1000T which handles a pretty good range, but if you want really wide-range you'll want something with a long cage. Huret Svelto, Jubilee, and Challenger all handle a pretty decent range, even the short arm models. Jubilee and Allvit have long-cage models. I don't know how Huret's would work on a Simplex dropout. You can buy a Soma long cage on Ebay for about 40 bucks, this is a copy of the Campagnolo Rally cage. It bolts onto the Nuovo Record and turns it into a pretty decent wide-range derailleur. Maybe you could use it with the Gran Sport. But you'd still have the problem of dropout compatibility.

Thank you so much kroozer for all these details, definitely clearer now on TA cranks. Being in France I’m looking first on french local ads, where chances to find something are higher. Unfortunately, many ads are shy of details/photos and posters often unable or not keen to answer queries, so you have to guess and hope for luck, Simplex derailleurs are not easily identifiable. Let’s keep trying then…

There is a way to get a Campagnolo Nuovo derailleur to wrap more chain: longer cage plates. Just Google "campagnolo long cage plates" or search for same on eBay.
https://www.somafab.com/archives/pro...ur-cage-plates

Soma used to make these, but unfortunately don't appear to now -- available on eBay for close to the Soma price of $45 though.

I bought a set of plates made by BFer [MENTION=201707]Henry III[/MENTION] back in the day, still haven't had a project to use them on, but may get to them yet.