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Cosme(?) frameset

Old 09-03-21, 11:12 AM
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le bici di jaco
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Cosme(?) frameset

Received a frame recently and I was curious if anyone has heard of it. I am aware of the Argentine cyclist who started making frames and parts back in the day, but I do not believe this applies to that lineage. It would appear to be from the early to late 80s.
The decal (looks new, without any wear) may possibly be unoriginal although the paint does seem to original. Only decal is on the seat tube; no signs or remnants of decals anywhere else.
Frame and fork (fully chromed, semi-sloped crown) are 531, Cinelli BB is 68cm with French threads. Pantographed fork and seat stay caps with script "L" in a Guerciotti-like star. Top and bottom head lugs, and seat lug have "mickey mouse" logo cutouts; essentially 3 circles overlapping at their edges.

Last edited by le bici di jaco; 09-05-21 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 09-03-21, 11:21 AM
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Rear spacing is 126mm. Cage bosses on seat and down tubes. Campagnolo dropouts front and rear.
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Old 09-03-21, 11:39 AM
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thanks very much for posting; shall look forward to following along

the metric threading fits right in with a Saavedra product

the forum has had a number of discussion threads on Cosme Saavedra and Saavedra bicycles and components, some of the bicycles produced bore the Roger marque

forum member bikemig & I own Roger badged machines produced in the early 1970's and kitted with Gambato brand fittings

the company maintained a distribution office in Los Angeles, California at one time:

​​​​​​Saavedra

here are some forum posts from the past -

​​​​​​https://www.bikeforums.net/search.php?searchid=12458232

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one of the founders of the Basque marque BH - Beistegui Hermanos, had the first name of Cosme

so you might wish to explore a possible Spain origin for the machine


https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/BH_(empresa)

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Last edited by juvela; 09-03-21 at 11:48 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 09-03-21, 12:05 PM
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Thank you juvela
I have tried loading photos, but nothing will load at this time. Edited first post with more descriptions due to this problem.
Photo upload now working!




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Old 09-03-21, 12:16 PM
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Fork steerer is stamped with REYNOLDS 531, and some other numbers; difficult to photograph due to chrome and depth of marks. 27.2mm seat post.
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Old 09-03-21, 12:52 PM
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thank you for the photos and additional information

the combination of metric threading and a 27.2 saddle pillar size is puzzling

normally for a metric Reynolds frame one would expect a pillar size of 26.6

forum member MauriceMoss is sure to recognize this five pointed star symbol with the letter L inside

he shall be able to reveal all to us upon his next visitation...


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Old 09-03-21, 12:54 PM
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Those decals look like the logo for a Spanish LBS. https://bicicletascosme.com/
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Old 09-03-21, 01:17 PM
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Thank you T-Mar and juvela
I did see the "COSME" logo for that shop when researching, thus my being dubious as to the Argentinian tie-in.
I have not verified the post size myself. I have fit French BB cups for verification of the shell.
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Old 09-03-21, 04:12 PM
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regarding standard of tubing diameters and threading on the frame -

if convenient, one easy check you can make is to measure the outside diameter of the frame tubes

a metric standard frame would have down and seat tubes of 28.0mm, a top tube of 26.0mm and a steerer of 25.0mm

a BSC/ISO/IT dimension frame would have down and seat tubes of 28.6mm, a top tube of 25.4mm and a steerer of 25.4mm

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the combination of a metric shell with a 27.2mm saddle pillar is somewhat unusual but certainly not unheard of. for example, MCB of Sweden, makers of Monark and Crescent brand cycles produced wares which had BSC dimension tubes paired with metric threaded shells.

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1984 was about the time Spain was in transition from the BNA standard to the ISO one. there certainly may have been some cycles produced which bore traits of both sizing standards...

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the L-star logo/marque -

one convenient spot to get an overview of Iberian marques is the reciclone site. this is a business which offers primarily replacement transfers for cycles of Spanish manufacture. a few marques from other lands are also included.

checked their lists and the symbol does not seem to be shown.

https://reciclone.com/


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Old 09-04-21, 02:03 PM
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Thanks again for the info juvela ,
I am still new to the vintage bike game. I had picked up a couple of odd frames and parts on my travels for cheap (2 frame sets [Cosme? and Chiementin?] and 1 bike [Olmo complete but unassembled; Galli stuff-any good?] @ about 50 euros each, some loose parts [various Campagnolo and more], and a Gaburro Professional frame set [now built] for 150 euros; all with minor dings, a little rust, and a repaint) before moving back to the States, and before I shortly retire so I will have plenty of time learn, and to work on them and figure out what they are.
I cannot find a 27.0 mm post (I don't have many parts), but I took a 26.8 (size stamped on it) post off of the Olmo and it fit quite loose in the seat tube. I will have to remove my 27.2mm (also marked) post from my rider to double check because I just kind of eyeballed the inside tube diameter (with a mm ruler) and it seemed to be slightly larger than 27.0, but my eyes could be misleading me. I have no micrometer to check it with. Another reason I thought it was 27.2mm was due to the frame being 531 tubing and upon research it said 27.2mm post size, but I may be wrong as to what I read or how I interpreted it.
I weighed the frame (with fork) and it was under 6.5 pounds; seemed much lighter than the Olmo (but it still has headset installed, and has Italian BB 70mm for what that's worth, and is a larger frame).
I will see if I can accurately measure the outer diameter of the seat tube to see what it is; I do have an old set of calipers that should work, and just measure the gap with my ruler. I assume that if it should be 28.0mm it will be slightly larger given the paint (correct?); maybe 28.5ish, if 28.6mm closer to 29mm. Just guessing.
Regarding the pantograph, I assume it is the builder and not the brand. I am definitely not familiar with most of these marks including the lug cut-outs. I certainly don't know what type of lugs they are. Most lugs look the same to me except the fancy stuff on some bikes; mine are all pretty run of mill on 4 different frames except specificcut-outs.

The COSME bike shop started in 1985 per their web page so would make this frame no earlier in manucfacture than 1984 (I assume they had some stock prepared before opening their doors in 85; especially if in early 85) if it is indeed one of their marketed frames. I still think the paint is original, but the decals (both sides of the seat tube) appear very new considering the wear and tear on the frame. I thought they were added since you would think there would be at least a headbadge remaining (or pieces thereof). Also, again without any real knowledge here, I thought the wrap over seat stays were odd and may provide some hint as to the builder or marque aside from the pantohraphs.

Thanks again in advance for any light that can be shed. I just kind of would like to know; otherwise I am still going to build and ride with pride regardless.

Edit: tried posting this 1/2 a day ago, but it didn't load (maybe same problem as photos?). Since then I I have used my 27.2mm post and it fits easily without any effort so I will go with that as being the size which as I mentioned earlier agrees with the 531 info I found online. It would appear that this is an 'odd' frame build if what was mentioned previously is the norm. Maybe that difference will help as a determinant for it's true lineage aside from the decals. Again, it is (to me) a lightweight well built frame of quality workmanship; I doubt I will see one when riding it around just like the Gaburro which people on the streets don't seem to have ever heard of.

Last edited by le bici di jaco; 09-04-21 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 09-04-21, 03:12 PM
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note on Chiementin -

posted some images of an example in forum tread here a couple years back

checked just now and they have gone up the chimney; also no longer on me hd

Chiementin is the name of a retail shop located in Venezia

possible that all cycles bearing the name are contract builds

here is a forum thread we had on one done by Galmozzi -

​​​​​​Galmozzi-chiementin

you may wish to begin a thread on your example when you are ready...

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note on measuring tube diameters -

you can get fairly close by wrapping a piece of paper around a tube and marking it with a pen

you can then straighten out the paper and measure it with a straightedge and divide the result by Pi

another technique is to employ the jaws of an adjustable spanner


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Last edited by juvela; 09-04-21 at 03:18 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 09-06-21, 12:57 AM
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I have seen this panto before, but it was on this same frame when it was listed on eBay (a few years back?) so not much help there. I do remember it being advertised as having a French threaded bb shell.
I only have a very flimsy guess as to the origin of the panto and a slightly more solid guess on the origin of the frame.



TL;DR

I'm guessing this frame was likely part of a small run that came out of one of three shops: Macario, Candela, or Marotias, possibly for Lorenzana (a Madrid shop involved in racing in the 80s).


Long version

This is an interesting puzzle to untangle.


First off, I agree that the Cosme decals look younger than the paint and weren't there originally. The decals themselves are indeed of the shop in Alcobendas near Madrid (as T-Mar posted), so not related to Cosme Saavedra.

side note: For some reason, the shop's website (under ¿Quienes Somos?) only mentions that they're a northern Madrid shop that's been in business since 1985. It's only if you look at their Facebook page do you find the connection to a builder, Cosme Díaz, who worked with Macario Llorente for 47 years. It seems like the person running the Cosme shop is Cosme's son (judging by the pic descriptions). Here are some pics of Cosme working:





Was Cosme Diaz himself involved in starting this shop or was it only named after him? I don't know. Might be worth contacting whoever is currently in charge to get the scoop.



As for the distinctive frame features, we've got the panto, the seat stay caps, the clover-like cutouts, the stay ends and numbers stamped on the chain stay nozzles of the bb shell.


Clover cutouts:

Although you'll also find similar cutouts on some British marques (like Ellis-Briggs and Mercian) or Italian ones like Grandis and CBT Italia, I'll focus on Spanish builders here.
Of the ones I'm familiar with, Macario Llorente is the first that comes to mind. This feature wasn't used very frequently so there isn't a ton of examples online but you can find a decent number of frames with these cutouts, ranging from the 60s to the 80s.

The other Spanish marque that I've seen these on is Candela (of Madrid). The Candela brothers built high end frames in the 50s and 60s but there are very few examples online (I have pics of only two). I don't know how long they were in business, but they were building frames at least as late as early-mid 80s, according to some sports newspaper articles. And guess who learned his craft at the Candela shop? Macario Llorente.


Macario:




This Macario is claimed to be built by Marotias:




Candela:






Seat stay caps:

Most people will probably associate this style of stay caps with Bernard Carré. However, I think this is a Spanish built frame, even though the threads might be French.

I've not come across a Macario labeled frame that had seat stay caps exactly like the mystery frame, though. There are some with semi-wraparound stays (that owners/sellers attributed to Cosme Díaz) but are not a match:





One Spanish builder who did do stay caps like the mystery 'Cosme' was Jose Maria Marotias. He's a very well regarded builder and relatively well known both in Spain and abroad (he built frames for Merckx and Ocaña).
Here are the seat stay caps on some of his frames (top left is from Luis Ocaña's 1969 bike and the top right José Manuel Fuente's ('El Tarangu') 1972 bike):





I'm not sure what relationship Marotias and Macario had. I have seen some frames that were claimed to be by Marotias even though they had Macario decals. However, I have also seen Otero frames with Macario decals, so I'm not entirely sure what to think of this. The fact is that the stay caps on the mystery frame come closest to what Marotias used to do.




The panto:


While the "L" in the panto might refer to "Llorente," I've never seen any "L" logos on any Macarios nor have I seen any star-like logos.
The only Spanish cycling logo that comes anywhere close to this panto is that of a company called Lorenzana from Madrid.
Apparently, there were several Lorenzana brothers who were in the moving business who also operated a bike shop in Madrid. I've only seen a few bikes labeled Lorenzana along with some accessories. I've never seen a panto on a frame, only stickers, and while not a match, the concept is similar:






The Candela built frames from the 80s (that I mentioned earlier) were the ones built for the Dormilon racing team, around 1983/4, and were badged Lorenzana:




There is a Rafael Lorenzana who was a pro rider in the late 80s/early 90s (for team Puertas Mavisa) who manages a moving company but is still active in cycling. Would be interesting to get some background info on this from him.
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Old 09-06-21, 12:58 AM
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Numbers on the chainstay nozzles:

I could swear I came across other examples of numbers stamped like that but now I can only find one, a Macario frame:







Stay ends:

The mystery Cosme:





Stay ends treatment is generally consistent with Macario frames:





Brake bridge:

Brake bridge style is more/less consistent with both Macario and Marotias.

The mystery Cosme:



Macario:



Marotias:







So, at the end of this long ramble, what we have here is a frame with clover cutouts, number stampings, stay ends and brake bridge consistent with Macario, stay caps mostly associated with Marotias, stickers from a shop that is named after Cosme Diaz who built for Macario, and finally a panto that resembles Lorenzana brand that was involved racing in the mid 80s and had frames built by Candela.

My money is on this frame being either a Macario or a Candela.
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Old 09-06-21, 08:19 AM
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-----


WOW!

yet another grand slam for Maurice

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Old 09-06-21, 10:59 PM
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Wow indeed!
Thank you for the history MauriceMoss , very informative with all the different tie-ins. I bought that frame in Vienna from a shop (other bikes purchased private sales in Italy). If that frame was on sale 2 years ago I can see why the shop gave me a very good price (60 euros; plus I purchased a bunch of NOT CHEAP parts from them as a package deal) when I bought it a couple months ago. I got a French threaded Zeus BB cups (new, but need spindle; can I use any brand?), and Zeus: supercronos RD, FD, chainrings (drilled) & seat post so I guess my mind was already heading towards the Spanish side of things. I will try to build it with Spanish parts if I can. I think the Olympic or Olympia pedals are a Spanish make, got them in Italy though so maybe not. I guess I can leave the decals in place without having a definite ID now that there could be more than one possibility as to the actual builder.
I hope the Chiementin(?) frame's history is not so convoluted. Thanks again juvela for the insight regarding that frame. I am pretty sure it is not a Galmozzi, certainly not one like the example in the link. That frame looks like someone went to the hardware store and just purchased a bunch of individual letters to stick on it; a much older frame than the "Cosme"; 60s-early 70s(?). I don't know anything about it except that it has a 70mm BB w/Italian threading. It was a dirt cheap yard sale buy (about 40 euros) so nothing lost; perfect for some cheap Italian parts if it turns out to be a run of the mill frame set. I will post it separately as suggested.

Last edited by le bici di jaco; 09-06-21 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 09-07-21, 10:10 PM
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regarding fittings -

Zeus bottom bracket spindles for cotterless chainsets were offered in both 55mm centres and 57mm centres
the 57's would be for use on 70mm shells and the 55's for use on 68mm shells

for a two plateau drive train there are four model permutations:

114 X 55, 114 X 57, 118 X 55 & 118 X 57

suggest for your application the 118 X 55 would be the one you require

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Olimpic components -

in case you search on this manufacturer remember to spell the name with an i rather than a y

pedals, hubs and caliper brakes were produced

there was a top model hub which very much rivaled the Campag R/NR model




a variety of their products can be seen at VB -

​​​​​​https://velobase.com/ViewBrand.aspx?...26e2bba&From=T

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Old 09-29-21, 10:01 PM
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for a two plateau drive train there are four model permutations:

114 X 55, 114 X 57, 118 X 55 & 118 X 57

suggest for your application the 118 X 55 would be the one you require

---

Olimpic components -

in case you search on this manufacturer remember to spell the name with an i rather than a y.

​​​​​Sorry for belated thank you!
What I was wondering is if I could use a different axle (non-Zeus) with the cups I have. I know I need the proper width between the the axle races as well as overall length. I am slowly getting some odds and ends parts, presently have 2 bracket axles one (Galli) from the Olmo loose parts and another (Campagnolo) from the "bucket of parts" I got in Vienna. I measured the lengths and both are approx. 114mm overall. The Galli has 52mm distance between the inner edges of the bearing race surface, the Campagnolo has 52mm bwteen same. The Olmo has a 70mm bracket shell so I assumed that the Campagnolo was for a 68mm shell regardless of threading. What I don't know is can the Campanolo axle be used with the Zeus cups. The axle seems to fit similarly to the Zeus cups as it does to the Campagnolo cup regarding clearnance tolerance, but will the bearings and race surfaces be compatible? Are the same size ball bearings used? I think 114mm will be a good length. I have the Zeus Cronos crankset, but if not correct for chainstay clearance I can try the Galli set, or a Campagnolo set.
You are correct on the "Olimpic" pedals. I never looked at the spelling closely.
I have yet to determine what type of headset and stem I need; are they French thread and dimensions? I don't know.
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Old 09-29-21, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----


WOW!

yet another grand slam for Maurice

------
Wow indeed! That is a crazy-deep investigative tour-de-force! This shows us pikers how a master sleuth does it...amazing!
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Old 09-30-21, 02:07 AM
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114 X 55, 114 X 57, 118 X 55 & 118 X 57

suggest for your application the 118 X 55 would be the one you require

---

Olimpic components -

in case you search on this manufacturer remember to spell the name with an i rather than a y.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​​​​​Sorry for belated thank you!
What I was wondering is if I could use a different axle (non-Zeus) with the cups I have? I know I need the proper width between the the axle races as well as overall length. I am slowly getting some odds and ends parts, presently have 2 bracket axles one (Galli) from the Olmo loose parts and another (Campagnolo) from the "bucket of parts" I got in Vienna. I measured the lengths and both are approx. 114mm overall. The Galli has 52mm distance between the inner edges of the bearing race surface, the Campagnolo has 50mm between same. The Olmo has a 70mm bracket shell so I assumed that the Campagnolo was for a 68mm shell regardless of threading. What I don't know is can the Campanolo axle be used with the Zeus cups? The axle seems to fit similarly to the Zeus cups as it does to the Campagnolo cup regarding the hole clearance tolerance, but will the bearings and race surfaces be compatible? Are the same size ball bearings used? I think 114mm will be a good length. I have the Zeus Cronos crankset, but if not correct for chainstay clearance I can try the Galli set, or a Campagnolo set from "the bucket".

You are correct on the "Olimpic" pedals. I never looked at the spelling closely.

I have yet to determine what type of headset and stem I need; are they French thread and dimensions? I don't know.

Last edited by le bici di jaco; 09-30-21 at 02:13 AM.
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