Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Weird vintage tech thread.

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Weird vintage tech thread.

Old 12-10-21, 05:58 AM
  #126  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
Kleenfeet:


tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 12-10-21, 08:48 AM
  #127  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
American Star of the 1880s, designed to resist 'headers':




The American Star had an interesting belt&ratchet/treadle drive:


tcs is offline  
Old 12-10-21, 08:55 AM
  #128  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
The J-Rad of 1921 also had a treadle+cable drive and a 'crank forward' layout:




This layout is seen in the 'Sofacykel' of the 1930s




and continues today in the Rans/Phoenix Bike WRX crank forward bikes.
tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 12-10-21, 09:04 AM
  #129  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
Eliminating the 'header' of the penny-farthing was a serious matter. These lowered & geared bikes were generally called Kangaroos:




The lowered, treadle machines were called Faciles:


tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 12-10-21, 09:10 AM
  #130  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
Into the design orthodoxy of the high wheeler, John Lawson introduced his 1879 chain-to-rear-wheel drive Bicyclette:




"It'll never catch on," they said.
tcs is offline  
Old 12-10-21, 11:22 AM
  #131  
obrentharris 
Senior Member
 
obrentharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Point Reyes Station, California
Posts: 3,840

Bikes: Indeed!

Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1140 Post(s)
Liked 1,799 Times in 644 Posts
@tcs thanks for all these fine examples!
Brent
obrentharris is offline  
Old 12-10-21, 11:49 AM
  #132  
VtwinVince
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 117 Times in 71 Posts
I believe post 12 shows an Alex Pong prototype, pretty interesting stuff that guy came up with. I have a set of his prototype cranks, hollow forged and with integral BB. Way ahead of his time.
VtwinVince is offline  
Likes For VtwinVince:
Old 12-10-21, 12:46 PM
  #133  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1208 Post(s)
Liked 1,439 Times in 733 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Into the design orthodoxy of the high wheeler, John Lawson introduced his 1879 chain-to-rear-wheel drive Bicyclette:




"It'll never catch on," they said.
well, "they" weren't completely wrong.

It is interesting how the design choices of the high wheeler stuck around in the early safety bikes. The use of a larger front wheel, as shown here, is one example. The use of footpegs (for mounting) on the back of the bike stuck around even longer. The upright rider position, with the bars quite close to the rider, stayed around for a while too.

It does make me wonder if this was because the designer hadn't considered alternatives, or if the designer understood that people wouldn't buy it if the appearance was too different from what customers were accustomed to.

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Likes For steelbikeguy:
Old 12-10-21, 12:53 PM
  #134  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1208 Post(s)
Liked 1,439 Times in 733 Posts
we've already discussed the shaft drive a bit, but I thought I'd share an article on shaft drive designs written by David Herlihy. This was published in the June 1996 issue of Bicycle Guide magazine.





Just in case anyone hasn't read it, David Herlihy wrote a great history of early bicycle development titled "The Bicycle". Definitely worth reading!

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Likes For steelbikeguy:
Old 12-10-21, 01:27 PM
  #135  
52telecaster
ambulatory senior
 
52telecaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria Il
Posts: 4,174

Bikes: Bob Jackson World Tour, Falcon and lots of other bikes.

Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1264 Post(s)
Liked 1,002 Times in 551 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
we've already discussed the shaft drive a bit, but I thought I'd share an article on shaft drive designs written by David Herlihy. This was published in the June 1996 issue of Bicycle Guide magazine.





Just in case anyone hasn't read it, David Herlihy wrote a great history of early bicycle development titled "The Bicycle". Definitely worth reading!

Steve in Peoria
Ty man!
52telecaster is offline  
Likes For 52telecaster:
Old 12-10-21, 02:33 PM
  #136  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1208 Post(s)
Liked 1,439 Times in 733 Posts
Looking through my clipped magazine articles, I found another that is fun and interesting.
I'm not sure that is really "weird" tech, but it is certainly a bit excessive and dangerous!





The biggest I've seen was a quad or a quint (5 person) tandem by Santana... IIRC. I saw it on RAGBRAI, and it was towing a trailer behind the trail-a-bike attached at the back. Crazy.
edit: I found a photo of it! This was in the year 2000. No trailer or trail-a-bike. Still, I can't imagine the logistics of getting this on the road.




The biggest that I have a (good) photo of is an old quad tandem at the Billy Goat bike shop in the St. Louis, MO area. This is the former A-1 bike shop run by Ray Florian Sr. I think he may have built the quad tandem too.



Steve in Peoria

Last edited by steelbikeguy; 12-10-21 at 02:51 PM.
steelbikeguy is offline  
Likes For steelbikeguy:
Old 12-10-21, 03:40 PM
  #137  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 454 Post(s)
Liked 710 Times in 356 Posts

8 riders!


This book (Bicycles and Tricycles, by Sharp) was published in 1896, so the disk wheels were around by then, or earlier?






Amphibibious! (That's a classic movie reference, not a typo)


Bolted together (& disassembleable) aluminum frame with octagonal tubing, 1930s - before Loctite was invented. What could possibly go wrong?



Quad tandem, the hard way.
Watch out for low overpasses.


Jocelyn Lovell, on a bike he made himself. The gears on each side had different ratios, a lower one for the first 70 m, and a higher one for the rest of the race (a 1 km time trial, aka "kilo") He rode it at World Championships but didn't win, and it never became popular.

Last edited by bulgie; 12-10-21 at 04:59 PM.
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 12-10-21, 04:50 PM
  #138  
grant40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
grant40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 181 Times in 123 Posts
Originally Posted by sincos View Post
Curious ... what's the Q-factor on those things? Looks suitable for a pregnant hippopotamus...
Also, the two middle chainrings on the Quad (is that a 1/2 step + uncle + granny?) -- are the missing/worn-down teeth in line with the crankarm really intentional?\
Possibly. I know that a lot of the old shimano road bike from free wheels and cassettes had had shorter teeth to aid and shifting before the modern sloped style of teeth were invented.
grant40 is offline  
Old 12-10-21, 04:57 PM
  #139  
grant40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
grant40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 181 Times in 123 Posts
5 chainrings. This thing has some serious range.
grant40 is offline  
Old 12-10-21, 04:59 PM
  #140  
grant40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
grant40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 181 Times in 123 Posts
A lower end, rivited 4x crankset on what they said is a Raleigh Delmara. Nothing came up when I Googled that frame.
grant40 is offline  
Old 12-10-21, 07:12 PM
  #141  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 454 Post(s)
Liked 710 Times in 356 Posts




Quad rings really lend themselves to tandems, that can go faster downhill but might need to go slower uphill.
Especially on a front-drive like this, with no chain-line worries — "cross-chaining" just isn't a thing, with such a long chain. Q-factor can even be kept narrow, by using a short spindle. No tire or chainstay to clear.

You need a front derailer that can "cover the spread", but they're out there, sometimes with a simple modification needed. Or make your own, like the Singer in the first photo!

The Rebour drawing shows a TA with extra-long chainring bolts, maybe custom-made? My favorite way to do it, with TA 5-pin rings, is to use two outer chainrings, one on either side of the 5-pin flange on the crank. Then no custom bolts are needed. I bolted the outer 2 rings to each other with normal double bolts, at the "Randonneur" bolt circle, and then the inner 3 rings are bolted together at the "Cyclotouriste" bolt circle. That does require an extra set of bolt holes to be drilled in the 2nd-largest ring, which is bolted to the larger outer ring and also to the inner rings. Drilling holes is easier than making custom longer quad bolts. The whole double-drilling, double bolting nonsense probably isn't strictly necessary — that outer ring could stand alone, bolted only to the crank at the 50.4 mm circle — but it stiffens up the assembly and prevents the chain wedging itself down between the two outer rings. Large TA 50.4 rings are not very stiff side to side.

This method could also be extended to 5 or more rings, still without needing extra-long bolts.

Mark B

Last edited by bulgie; 12-10-21 at 07:17 PM.
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 12-11-21, 11:58 AM
  #142  
grant40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
grant40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 181 Times in 123 Posts
Originally Posted by VtwinVince View Post
I believe post 12 shows an Alex Pong prototype, pretty interesting stuff that guy came up with. I have a set of his prototype cranks, hollow forged and with integral BB. Way ahead of his time.
pics?
grant40 is offline  
Old 12-11-21, 12:56 PM
  #143  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
It does make me wonder if this was because the designer hadn't considered alternatives, or if the designer understood that people wouldn't buy it if the appearance was too different from what customers were accustomed to.
Thor Heyerdahl thought there were some unnecessary features in the old hieroglyphs for his recreated reed boat, the Ra, and left them off. The Ra disintegrated in the Atlantic ocean, and he discovered the old designers knew what they were doing! (The Ra II incorporated those features and safely sailed from Africa to the Caribbean intact.)

It is interesting how the design choices of the high wheeler stuck around in the early safety bikes. The use of a larger front wheel, as shown here, is one example.
It was a front end geometry they knew and understood to work acceptably well for riding solid tires on rough roads. As designers brought the front wheel diameter down in the early safety bike era, they tried all manner of suspensions and springy frames. Blessedly the pneumatic tire - and the Good Roads movement - arrived.
tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 12-11-21, 01:30 PM
  #144  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
Originally Posted by martl View Post
I object, the Osgear was ahead of its time rather than weird. As you say, it had Index, which made a return 60 years later...
Index - Sturmey-Archer since 1903.
tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 12-11-21, 02:02 PM
  #145  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
I read on the internet (and if you see it on the internet, it must be true) that Tulio Campagnolo invented derailleur gearing for the 1937 Tour de France.

Okay, now that you've spit your coffee out your nose, bicycle gearing dates back to, oh, let's say ~1882, when the first practical, useful planetary gear sets were offered. Several companies pursued this, the most successful being Crypto-Dynamic. They began with gear sets for tricycles...

Fun fact: Tricycles outsold bicycles in the late 1870s and early 1880s in England. Queen Victory owned one! (She never rode it - it's probably still in the back of a shed at Balmoral.)

...and engineered a drive hub version for ordinaries (penny-farthings).

They rolled with the times, moving their two-speed hub to what was called a 'bantam' ordinary with pneumatic tires




and advertised it heavily with racing prowess:


"It is an absolute fact that not withstanding all the efforts to disparage the front drive, almost every rider who has tried it prefers it greatly to the rear drive."

Alas, chéri, it was not to be, and by 1900 they were advertising rear drive safeties with their two speed hub.




There's a nice restored bantam ordinary (later called a chainless safety) @
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/18...d-safety-no-2/

Thus died this 'weird tech'. Or did it?


tcs is offline  
Old 12-11-21, 02:17 PM
  #146  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
Beginning in the early 1890s various inventors tried putting bicycle gears at the bottom bracket. Probably the most successful (least unsuccessful?) was Adler of Germany in the 1930s.




One on display @
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/19...-gang-typ-155/

For a variety of technical reasons this is pretty much a dead end...well, except for those Effigear, Pinion and Sturmey-Archer gearboxes in current production!
tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 12-13-21, 02:33 AM
  #147  
martl
Strong Walker
 
martl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 1,156

Bikes: too many

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 253 Post(s)
Liked 315 Times in 171 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Beginning in the early 1890s various inventors tried putting bicycle gears at the bottom bracket. Probably the most successful (least unsuccessful?) was Adler of Germany in the 1930s.




One on display @
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/19...-gang-typ-155/

For a variety of technical reasons this is pretty much a dead end...well, except for those Effigear, Pinion and Sturmey-Archer gearboxes in current production!
nice find

martl is offline  
Old 12-13-21, 08:59 AM
  #148  
Pompiere
Senior Member
 
Pompiere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 2,891

Bikes: 1984 Miyata 310, 1986 Schwinn Sierra, 2011 Jamis Quest, 1980 Peugeot TH8 Tandem, 1992 Performance Parabola, 1987 Ross Mt. Hood, 1988 Schwinn LeTour, 1988 Trek 400T, 1981 Fuji S12-S LTD

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 254 Times in 177 Posts
In the 1970s, DANA had a 3 speed bike transmission conversion kit. It was designed to replace a one piece crank with a 3 speed gear box.


Dana 3 speed transmission
https://www.utoledo.edu/library/virtu..._bike_ads2.pdf
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
dana_bike_ads2.pdf (505.7 KB, 1 views)
Pompiere is offline  
Likes For Pompiere:
Old 12-13-21, 11:07 AM
  #149  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
How fast can you ride in a draft?




In the 1890s they answered this by riding behind 'pacing multis':




To improve the draft, they moved the rearmost rider over the rear wheel. This was called a 'donkeyback'.




The big pacing multis were replaced with motorbikes after ~1900. Amazingly, though, a donkey back is still produced:


tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 12-13-21, 11:13 AM
  #150  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,083

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ½DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 405 Posts
Tandems - where do you put the lady?

The Victorian answer scoffed at the question. Of course the lady goes in front!




There were technical issues with this, solved by putting the lady in the back. This change needed the social construct challenged and changed - with advertising!


tcs is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.