Racer or Tourer?
#1
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Racer or Tourer?
Sorry for all the posts. I'm a newbie and asking alot of questions as I weigh my options.
As it applies to 10 speed, drop handlebar bikes of the 70's and 80's, what constitutes a touring bike as opposed to a racing bike? I get that the frame of a tourer would be more rigged to carry luggage, etc. But what other differences? Frame dimensions? If so, what to look for in a touring type?
As it applies to 10 speed, drop handlebar bikes of the 70's and 80's, what constitutes a touring bike as opposed to a racing bike? I get that the frame of a tourer would be more rigged to carry luggage, etc. But what other differences? Frame dimensions? If so, what to look for in a touring type?
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For the 70's most of the touring bikes were 27" x 1 1/4" tires, where the race bikes were 700cm sew ups. In the 70's the race bikes wheel base became shorter than the touring counterparts. Most race bikes in the 70's did not have rack and fender mounts, the touring bikes could have tip and dropout eyelets some had/have seatstay and/or fork mounts.
The race bikes were 52/42 cranks with corncob freewheels. Touring bikes could be triple cranks long cage derailleurs big freewheels.
The race bikes were 52/42 cranks with corncob freewheels. Touring bikes could be triple cranks long cage derailleurs big freewheels.
Last edited by Mr. 66; 02-16-22 at 09:32 AM.
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There are quite a lot of differences, though back in the day I did some big tours on my racing bike because I couldn't afford a touring bike at the time. Here are the main differences I can think of:
The main difference is that touring bikes have much lower, and typically wider range gearing to allow one to drag luggage up steep grades for hours at a stretch. Racing bikes have close ratio gears to allow fine tuning so as to keep your cadence close to ideal during a race. They also have higher top gears to allow short bursts at high speed.
Touring bikes have larger fork and chain stay clearances to allow wider tires. They also typically run either cantilever or center pull brakes for the same reasons.
Touring bikes typically have slacker seat and head tube angles, which results in a cushier ride. Racing bikes generally have steeper angles to provide more responsive steering and less flex.
Touring bikes typically have longer wheelbases for two reasons: 1) longer chain stays allow clearance between the rider's heel and rear panniers; and 2) those slack angles and large chain stay clearances make it so.
Touring bikes typically had 27" clincher wheels because they were easier to repair on the roadside and back in the day 700c clinchers were not widely available in the US and UK. Note that in other countries such as France, touring bikes typically ran 650B clinchers. Racing bikes ran sewups (aka tubulars) because they were lighter and more responsive. Sewups had rims that were approximately the same size as 700c clincher rims.
Touring bike wheels often had higher spoke counts (e.g. 40 rear, 36 front) than racing bikes (36 or 32 both front and rear).
Racing bikes were typically lighter, using thinner tubing and more expensive lightweight components. On a touring bike with luggage weight is much less important because you don't care if you crest a hill or finish a sprint a few seconds faster.
I'm sure there are more, but that's all I can think of right now.
The main difference is that touring bikes have much lower, and typically wider range gearing to allow one to drag luggage up steep grades for hours at a stretch. Racing bikes have close ratio gears to allow fine tuning so as to keep your cadence close to ideal during a race. They also have higher top gears to allow short bursts at high speed.
Touring bikes have larger fork and chain stay clearances to allow wider tires. They also typically run either cantilever or center pull brakes for the same reasons.
Touring bikes typically have slacker seat and head tube angles, which results in a cushier ride. Racing bikes generally have steeper angles to provide more responsive steering and less flex.
Touring bikes typically have longer wheelbases for two reasons: 1) longer chain stays allow clearance between the rider's heel and rear panniers; and 2) those slack angles and large chain stay clearances make it so.
Touring bikes typically had 27" clincher wheels because they were easier to repair on the roadside and back in the day 700c clinchers were not widely available in the US and UK. Note that in other countries such as France, touring bikes typically ran 650B clinchers. Racing bikes ran sewups (aka tubulars) because they were lighter and more responsive. Sewups had rims that were approximately the same size as 700c clincher rims.
Touring bike wheels often had higher spoke counts (e.g. 40 rear, 36 front) than racing bikes (36 or 32 both front and rear).
Racing bikes were typically lighter, using thinner tubing and more expensive lightweight components. On a touring bike with luggage weight is much less important because you don't care if you crest a hill or finish a sprint a few seconds faster.
I'm sure there are more, but that's all I can think of right now.
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Davester has it pretty well covered. One more thing I can think of, though, is that the bottom bracket of a dedicated touring frame is likely lower than on a racing frame for lower center of gravity. That makes for a more stable ride, especially at low speeds on an extended climb with the extra weight of full paniers. Racers wanted a higher BB so they could lean over more in turns and still be able to pedal without the dreaded pedal strike. Tourers do not need that.
You would think that a centimeter or less difference in BB height is not that big a deal, but over the course of a long day, making it a little bit easier or harder to hold a line really adds up.
Incidentally, that is why I never thought it was a great idea to use a cyclocross bike for loaded touring; their BBs tend to be even higher than road racers, making you work that little bit harder to hold a line, all the time and all day long. Over the course of an hour or two, not a big deal.. Over the course of 8 or 10 hours with a full load, it is noticeably more fatiguing, especially if you are doing a lot of low speed uphill grinding on a narrow road with a fair amount of traffic (I'm looking at you, Pacific Coast Highway), when holding a steady line is really important.
This also ties in with the longer wheelbases on tourers, which also makes it easier to hold a straight line at the cost of a bit less quick handling. On a self-supported tour with a fully loaded bike, that is a tradeoff you will make every time.
You would think that a centimeter or less difference in BB height is not that big a deal, but over the course of a long day, making it a little bit easier or harder to hold a line really adds up.
Incidentally, that is why I never thought it was a great idea to use a cyclocross bike for loaded touring; their BBs tend to be even higher than road racers, making you work that little bit harder to hold a line, all the time and all day long. Over the course of an hour or two, not a big deal.. Over the course of 8 or 10 hours with a full load, it is noticeably more fatiguing, especially if you are doing a lot of low speed uphill grinding on a narrow road with a fair amount of traffic (I'm looking at you, Pacific Coast Highway), when holding a steady line is really important.
This also ties in with the longer wheelbases on tourers, which also makes it easier to hold a straight line at the cost of a bit less quick handling. On a self-supported tour with a fully loaded bike, that is a tradeoff you will make every time.
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Main differences were tire clearance - racing bikes might not fit tires above 28mm and touring bikes can fit medium-wide tires - and luggage/rack/fender eyelets that are on all touring bikes but not on most racing bikes.
Also, most bikes originally specced with 27" tires can be converted to 700c size wheels and tires and this will allow wider tires by a few mm.
Also, most bikes originally specced with 27" tires can be converted to 700c size wheels and tires and this will allow wider tires by a few mm.
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here is what i see on Rhode island craigs list.... not sure your size so throwing up what i see
shogun $100 looks to be in good shape pretty small 50 cm???
https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...445320088.html
Cilo $350 this is nice bike swiss with 600 components 53 cm
https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...446062924.html
shogun $125 22inch good shape this would be a nice start and then go higher end later
https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...441430782.html
univega $140 not a lot of info
https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...436139509.html
this guy seems to have a bunch, no pricing info https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...421925855.html
shogun $100 looks to be in good shape pretty small 50 cm???
https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...445320088.html
Cilo $350 this is nice bike swiss with 600 components 53 cm
https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...446062924.html
shogun $125 22inch good shape this would be a nice start and then go higher end later
https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...441430782.html
univega $140 not a lot of info
https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...436139509.html
this guy seems to have a bunch, no pricing info https://providence.craigslist.org/bi...421925855.html
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(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
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All that luggage on front and rear racks and handlebar bags put a twisting force on the frame during the dynamics of riding. This can result in shimmy and waggle in low speed, tight turns and fast downhill runs. A good old-school touring bike will have a heavier gage top tube and seat stays to resist this twisting force.
The wheels on a touring bike will be built stronger than a racing bike: more, larger gage spokes, sturdier rim, beefier hub flanges.
An old-school touring bike would be more likely to have bar-end shifters rather than down-tube shifters, wider, higher bars (perhaps randonneur bend) and an all-day saddle.
The wheels on a touring bike will be built stronger than a racing bike: more, larger gage spokes, sturdier rim, beefier hub flanges.
An old-school touring bike would be more likely to have bar-end shifters rather than down-tube shifters, wider, higher bars (perhaps randonneur bend) and an all-day saddle.
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I've toured on my old road bike some. The chainstays are a little shorter than a "touring" bike. And, as mentioned above, I think I max out at about 28mm tires (I usually ride 25mm).
Note, the Colnago doesn't have eyelets at the dropouts, so this uses the Blackburn adapters for Campy dropouts.
I do find the whole thing just feels a little flexy. I'll have to do some more experiments in the future.
Note, the Colnago doesn't have eyelets at the dropouts, so this uses the Blackburn adapters for Campy dropouts.
I do find the whole thing just feels a little flexy. I'll have to do some more experiments in the future.
#9
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Although I don't see myself doing multi day touring, at my age I'm less likely to race snd more likely to do more "leisurely" day rides.
I'm thinking a tourer style would give me more what i need. I see a vintage Dawes Galaxy for cheap locally. If the guy replies to my inquiry I will go look at it. Dawes were reputed to focus on touring bikes.
but here's a test - looking also at a Schwinn Voyageur. The name suggests its a tourer. But do the features match?
I'm thinking a tourer style would give me more what i need. I see a vintage Dawes Galaxy for cheap locally. If the guy replies to my inquiry I will go look at it. Dawes were reputed to focus on touring bikes.
but here's a test - looking also at a Schwinn Voyageur. The name suggests its a tourer. But do the features match?
Last edited by swampyankee2; 02-16-22 at 05:11 PM.
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The thing to focus on is tire volume. If the bike can fit a decent volume size tire (700 x 32c or 27 x 1 and 1/4), then you can use it to do tours with or ride on gravel. There are other factors as well (chain stay length, frame geometry, for example) that matters in carrying a load but tire volume really matters.
Both the bikes you mentioned (a Dawes galaxy and the schwinn voyageur) can handle a decent volume tire.
But so can a great many "racing" bikes from the 70s and they had eyelets as well.
Both the bikes you mentioned (a Dawes galaxy and the schwinn voyageur) can handle a decent volume tire.
But so can a great many "racing" bikes from the 70s and they had eyelets as well.
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Sorry for all the posts. I'm a newbie and asking alot of questions as I weigh my options.
As it applies to 10 speed, drop handlebar bikes of the 70's and 80's, what constitutes a touring bike as opposed to a racing bike? I get that the frame of a tourer would be more rigged to carry luggage, etc. But what other differences? Frame dimensions? If so, what to look for in a touring type?
As it applies to 10 speed, drop handlebar bikes of the 70's and 80's, what constitutes a touring bike as opposed to a racing bike? I get that the frame of a tourer would be more rigged to carry luggage, etc. But what other differences? Frame dimensions? If so, what to look for in a touring type?
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There are quite a lot of differences, though back in the day I did some big tours on my racing bike because I couldn't afford a touring bike at the time. Here are the main differences I can think of:
The main difference is that touring bikes have much lower, and typically wider range gearing to allow one to drag luggage up steep grades for hours at a stretch. Racing bikes have close ratio gears to allow fine tuning so as to keep your cadence close to ideal during a race. They also have higher top gears to allow short bursts at high speed.
Touring bikes have larger fork and chain stay clearances to allow wider tires. They also typically run either cantilever or center pull brakes for the same reasons.
Touring bikes typically have slacker seat and head tube angles, which results in a cushier ride. Racing bikes generally have steeper angles to provide more responsive steering and less flex.
Touring bikes typically have longer wheelbases for two reasons: 1) longer chain stays allow clearance between the rider's heel and rear panniers; and 2) those slack angles and large chain stay clearances make it so.
The main difference is that touring bikes have much lower, and typically wider range gearing to allow one to drag luggage up steep grades for hours at a stretch. Racing bikes have close ratio gears to allow fine tuning so as to keep your cadence close to ideal during a race. They also have higher top gears to allow short bursts at high speed.
Touring bikes have larger fork and chain stay clearances to allow wider tires. They also typically run either cantilever or center pull brakes for the same reasons.
Touring bikes typically have slacker seat and head tube angles, which results in a cushier ride. Racing bikes generally have steeper angles to provide more responsive steering and less flex.
Touring bikes typically have longer wheelbases for two reasons: 1) longer chain stays allow clearance between the rider's heel and rear panniers; and 2) those slack angles and large chain stay clearances make it so.
Touring bikes typically had 27" clincher wheels because they were easier to repair on the roadside and back in the day 700c clinchers were not widely available in the US and UK. Note that in other countries such as France, touring bikes typically ran 650B clinchers. Racing bikes ran sewups (aka tubulars) because they were lighter and more responsive. Sewups had rims that were approximately the same size as 700c clincher rims.
Racing bikes were typically lighter, using thinner tubing and more expensive lightweight components. On a touring bike with luggage weight is much less important because you don't care if you crest a hill or finish a sprint a few seconds faster.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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swampyankee2 like all of us do I think you are over thinking it. remember the most important rule is the correct number of bikes to have is n+1 where n is the current number of bikes you have. get something learn and replace with better in future
I put posted some ideas earlier, but it would be super helpful it you told us how tall you are or what size bike you ride if you know
also, no steel rims and go for cotterless cranks
here are are a couple of more ideas maybe a little further away
Miyata 210 $150
https://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/bi...432116255.html
bridgestone rb-2 $400 higher than budget but really nice bike
https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/bi...444694185.html
I put posted some ideas earlier, but it would be super helpful it you told us how tall you are or what size bike you ride if you know
also, no steel rims and go for cotterless cranks
here are are a couple of more ideas maybe a little further away
Miyata 210 $150
https://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/bi...432116255.html
bridgestone rb-2 $400 higher than budget but really nice bike
https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/bi...444694185.html
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Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#14
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#16
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I'm also trying to rescue a Raleigh Sport I dragged out of a cellar.
I'm just looking for a classic road bike and trying to learn as much about them and the differences as possible.
BTW, I'm 5"8", 33" inseam, so a "medium" sized frame is what looking for. I look at the length of the steering stem to judge.
Last edited by swampyankee2; 02-16-22 at 07:59 PM.
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To throw a wrench in the works, I am pushing 70 and am most comfortable on a tall racing bike. I have three of them. My coupled bike is a tourer. The other tourers I've owned are no longer here. Just keep an open mind.
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I also have a Fuji Touring Series III with the low trail front end. Again, heavier than the racers but very comfortable for JRA (just riding around). Four day “hub and spoke tour” last year. Bike gobbled up everything the world threw at us. I may credit card tour on it a bit with front bag and panniers. The weight “disappears” once the bike is moving.
* what a trip that last day. Through the tunnel at the eastern continental divide, then flying down hill for 21 miles on various surfaces. Fully loaded with wet gear, cold, light rain and highly motivated. Passed the train going back uphill, seemingly 30’ above me. Warm car and Subway sandwich at the end of the journey.
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The bottom line is that tire volume matters. As in anything else, there are always trade offs but tire volume adds comfort and you are able to more readily ride rough roads (or gravel). If you really want a classic sports touring bike, be patient and hold out for a bike worth owning and restoring.
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By the 80s, racing bikes typically had narrower clearance and the eyelets started to disappear. There are exceptions. Touring bikes became a thing then. They had existed before then but bike companies became serious about marketing and selling them.
Mountain bikes became commercial, more mainstream product in the 80s and that had a spillover effect in terms of gearing, cranks, shifters, etc.
Companies also started marketing sports touring bikes (Trek for example did a good job of this).
Back in the day someone describe them as “platypuses” in that they weren’t good road bikes and they weren’t particularly good at carrying loads. The most frightening downhill I’ve ever done was on a loaded Univega Vivasport on a 5 mile 7% grade in the Colorado Rockies.
The bottom line is that tire volume matters. As in anything else, there are always trade offs but tire volume adds comfort and you are able to more readily ride rough roads (or gravel). If you really want a classic sports touring bike, be patient and hold out for a bike worth owning and restoring.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#22
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One bike I'll probably pick up just because its so cheap is an old Dawes Galaxy. Just for fun and tinkering with. The bike pictured has the vestiges of chrome fenders which have been "bobbed" to next to nothing. Most of the vintage Dawes Galaxies I find in google searching have full fenders. Would this bike have come new with full fenders? If so, it would be nice to restored full fenders to this bike since it's pretty heavy anyway.
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One bike I'll probably pick up just because its so cheap is an old Dawes Galaxy. Just for fun and tinkering with. The bike pictured has the vestiges of chrome fenders which have been "bobbed" to next to nothing. Most of the vintage Dawes Galaxies I find in google searching have full fenders. Would this bike have come new with full fenders? If so, it would be nice to restored full fenders to this bike since it's pretty heavy anyway.
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Better do some research on crank cotter removal and replacement.
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Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
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I'll state another vote for a sports touring bike as a superb compromise between a racing bike and a full out touring bike. Older (1950s) racing frames were pretty similar to sports touring frames, because of the cobblestone and gravel roads that were still common in Europe.
This one as 72 degree parallel seat and head tube angles and a long wheelbase, with plain gauge Reynolds 531 main tubes.
This one as 72 degree parallel seat and head tube angles and a long wheelbase, with plain gauge Reynolds 531 main tubes.
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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