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Interesting Set of Wheels

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Interesting Set of Wheels

Old 05-21-22, 10:04 AM
  #1  
JacobLee
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Interesting Set of Wheels

Well, at least I think they're interesting, in a time capsule sort of way. Thanks to philpeugeot for posting the Offer Up link on the ebay/craigslist thread, and apologies to attylah for responding first, but I met a nice young lady in a Shari's parking lot after work, handed her a twenty, and she handed me these:



It seems like someone had a really nice set of wheels built around Phil hubs, and never used them! How often does that happen. I love that everything matches, down to the valve caps.



And the Schwinn Super Record tires.



Weinmann 27 x 1 1/4" Concave rims with eyelets. No wear on the brake tracks, but they seem to be pretty well detensioned, with lots of spoke threads showing. Hmmm. I think these are Schwinn/Borg Union butted spokes, laced 4 cross.



Everything is a little rusty, but the Phil centers are just dusty.



Somebody rode them a little, but only in three of the cogs.



I almost think these should just hang on the wall. We'll see.
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Old 05-21-22, 10:51 AM
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Nice find! I came into several tubular / Phil wood wheelsets and one clincher recently. I unlaced them all except one set and the clinchers that I sold on the C&V marketplace. Iím going to hold onto one set of the hubs for a future build.
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Old 05-21-22, 11:03 AM
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-----



yes, the combination of tyres and spokes from Arnie & Co. certainly tell us where they were produced...

(name associated with Union is Berg rather than Borg)

-----
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Old 05-21-22, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----



yes, the combination of tyres and spokes from Arnie & Co. certainly tell us where they were produced...

(name associated with Union is Berg rather than Borg)

-----
Thanks for that correction! Berg Union.

I couldn't find any info on Arnie & Co. Can you elaborate?
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Old 05-21-22, 11:20 AM
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Wow, those are really clean! I'm glad the wheels found their way into the hands of a BF member.
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Old 05-21-22, 11:22 AM
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Nice wheels.
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Old 05-21-22, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by philpeugeot View Post
Wow, those are really clean! I'm glad the wheels found their way into the hands of a BF member.
Thanks again!
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Old 05-21-22, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
Thanks for that correction! Berg Union.

I couldn't find any info on Arnie & Co. Can you elaborate?
-----



short for Arnold Schwinn

Shari brought you Xmas seven moons early


-----

-----
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Old 05-21-22, 01:04 PM
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Didn't these show up on the eBay/CL thread? Shoot, the hubs alone are worth one more zero than what you paid. And 4-cross to Weinmann concaves, guarantees these will survive the zombie apocalypse.
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Old 05-21-22, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----



short for Arnold Schwinn

Shari brought you Xmas seven moons early


-----

-----
Aha! So laced at a Schwinn shop, presumably?
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Old 05-21-22, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Didn't these show up on the eBay/CL thread? Shoot, the hubs alone are worth one more zero than what you paid. And 4-cross to Weinmann concaves, guarantees these will survive the zombie apocalypse.
Yes, I happened to be taking care of some morning business when these were posted to that thread, and I was somehow able to install the OfferUp app and successfully message the seller in record time.

Not sure what the service suggestions are for 40-ish year old cartridge bearings, even if they appear to be unused. It'll also be interesting to see if the nipples turn on the rusty spokes.
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Old 05-21-22, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
Yes, I happened to be taking care of some morning business when these were posted to that thread, and I was somehow able to install the OfferUp app and successfully message the seller in record time.

Not sure what the service suggestions are for 40-ish year old cartridge bearings, even if they appear to be unused. It'll also be interesting to see if the nipples turn on the rusty spokes.
Lube em up and let em sit before you even try.

Check with Phil on the service rec.
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Old 05-21-22, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
Lube em up and let em sit before you even try.

Check with Phil on the service rec.
Excellent advice! Thanks,
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Old 05-21-22, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
Excellent advice! Thanks,
I would even be inclined to take the tires, tubes and rimstrips off to get them from the inside, eyelets and spokes.
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Old 05-21-22, 05:49 PM
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Nice catch! I just received my first set of Phil hubs, also on another set of 27" rims, and 6 speed. I don't know much about them, but IIRC they were considered pretty exotic in the 70s. I DO know they are slick
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Old 05-22-22, 07:51 PM
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Do not ride those tires..... The sidewalls look to be dry rotted already. Evident from how the plies of the tire carcass are showing....
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Old 05-22-22, 08:17 PM
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Those Weinmann concave rims are GREAT. A bit heavy but darn near bullet proof and they scream vintage all day long. I have both 700c and 27" versions, mounted to different bikes, over the years. The only set, that I have left, is fitted to my late sixties Legnano Grand Premio. I should add that the 700c version come in two widths...



Hang them on the wall? Why not but don't hesitate to use them should an appropriate bike come your way in need of a quality wheel set. Just my opinion. Nice find at an incredible price.
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Old 05-22-22, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
Do not ride those tires..... The sidewalls look to be dry rotted already. Evident from how the plies of the tire carcass are showing....
Not a chance of that, but thanks for looking out for me!

Sidewalls are good and crumbly, but the tubes are beautiful. Schwinn Approved, of course:



I could not find an image online similar to the tire label on the tread. I'm sure folks a little older than me are familiar with them. The rim strips were this type, which had deviated from center in many spots:



Thanks to merziac for his advice on lubing and waiting, everything is moving nicely:



Except that my wife got distracted by the sight of a motorcyclist lying in the road after an accident yesterday, and ran into the car in front of her. So now bike fun is on hold while I look for a hood and bumper for a 2006 Mazda3. Everyone was okay, though, including the motorcycle rider, so all is well!

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Old 05-22-22, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
Hang them on the wall? Why not but don't hesitate to use them should an appropriate bike come your way in need of a quality wheel set. Just my opinion. Nice find at an incredible price.
Only because they were so pristine! I say "were" because I was wiping off the rear hub center yesterday, and noticed that the beautiful Phil script had come right off. Probably inevitable, but it was a yucky feeling.
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Old 05-22-22, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
Yes, I happened to be taking care of some morning business when these were posted to that thread, and I was somehow able to install the OfferUp app and successfully message the seller in record time.

Not sure what the service suggestions are for 40-ish year old cartridge bearings, even if they appear to be unused. It'll also be interesting to see if the nipples turn on the rusty spokes.
take the tires and rim strips off and add your favorite liquid wrench type penetrant.
them the next day loosen the nipples 1 turn each- lube the threads then re- tension.
if any are balky with the unwind- you might consider going a turn more. Having free turning spokes makes all that follows so much easier.

the bearings are of old grease. Some have had good luck removing the outer seals and flushing then replacing the grease.
I have not. I would start with the drive side rear bearing as when assembled is protected by the freewheel.

phil will service the hubs but as I recall want the hubs free and clear - not part of a wheel.
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Old 05-23-22, 06:41 AM
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Heck if the hubs turn freely, I'd just ride the wheels after properly tensioning the spokes. I've seen old sealed bearing hubs like these that turn freely. Worst case scenario is you need to have Phil Wood replace the sealed bearings. I'm not that familiar with Wood hubs but my recollection is that sealed bearings on the older Wood hubs cannot be readily serviced.
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Old 05-29-22, 07:37 PM
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Baby steps, but the nipples all turn freely, so I was able to completely detention the wheels, mostly with my fingers. Took some brass wool to the rusty spokes. I understand that once they've rusted, there's no sense trying to preserve any zinc coating, so you might as well scrub away and wait for the rust to return. Most of my experience with spokes has been with stainless, so it was interesting how flexible these feel. Must be due to metallurgical properties? Dust seal pried up without trouble, so it looks like I'll be able to flush, grease, and ride!

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Old 05-30-22, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
Most of my experience with spokes has been with stainless, so it was interesting how flexible these feel. Must be due to metallurgical properties?
No - all steel has essentially the same stiffness.
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Old 05-30-22, 09:52 AM
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I've had only good luck with just leaving the bearings in old Phil hubs alone.

It surprises me, year after year, as I accumulate more (thousands of) miles on them (and as I accumulate more Phil-hubbed wheelsets).

The same seems to be true of bikes such as Kleins and Viscounts, where old pressed-in bottom bracket cartridge bearings give me no trouble while getting no servicing whatsoever.

This bike's spokes appear to be chromed, so will respond well to the brass wool moistened with a bit of WD40.
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Old 05-30-22, 09:53 PM
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I put a spoke gauge on these, and the flexibility of the spokes is probably more to do with them being 2.0 - 1.6. Weird.

I put the rear in the stand after burying the threads at the tops of the nipples, and the rim was waaaay over toward the nds. Almost like they had used two different spoke lengths, but on the wrong sides. Got it round and true and was getting tension even with a Park gauge when "Sproing!" Taco time! Oops, too tight. Backed everything off, made round and straight again, but still lots of threads showing on the nds. Drive sides are at around 100kpf, nds are around 60.

Doesn't seem like a rideable wheel, which is maybe why they were unridden? Sort of curious to remove a spoke from either side and see what's going on. Sort of tempted to unlace these and start over with new spokes.
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