Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Rim replacement due?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Rim replacement due?

Old 06-04-22, 06:42 PM
  #1  
Steel1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 19 Posts
Rim replacement due?

Hi,
I have an otherwise nice wheelset, with 36H Dura Ace HB-7400/FH-7403 hubs ad Mavic Open 4CD 700c clincher rims. Hubs and spokes are nice, but the rims are all scratched up by PO. Not sure if they used vise grips, screw drivers, some kind of clamping bike rack, or just relieved their anger by beating the rims with a chain, but there are radial scratches on both front and rear rim, one side only. I rode them a few hundred miles, and swapped out for some modern C24... but I would like to fix up the older wheels. I have done some basic wheel truing and have a stand, but never replaced a rim or built a wheel.

I am thinking about replacing the scratched 4CD rims. Ideally, a very clean or NOS identical replacement set of rims sounds easiest, since I could re-use the spokes and nipples. But these are not quite so easy or cheap to come by. I was also looking at more readily available options, like new Open Pro C.

Using ProWheelBuilder calculator, it shows the Open 4CD ERD=605mm, while Open Pro = 602 (also found this value in some older threads). But there was lots of debate about the true ERD for the Open Pro, so thinking it might be a drop in replacement. But not sure if I could re-use the existing spokes/nipples.

Is it OK to re-use the original spokes/nipples if they look clean?
Any alternate advice for new rims?

Existing spokes have a small "S" on the end.
Front wheel:




Rear wheel:


Thanks in advance!
Steel1 is offline  
Old 06-04-22, 07:08 PM
  #2  
Dave Mayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,201
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 904 Post(s)
Liked 245 Times in 161 Posts
I have built many wheels from scratch, and revived more by replacing (just) the rims. These do not look like deep scratches, and if you ride a few hundred miles, especially in the rain, they'll be gone due to erosion from the pads. Unless there is something structural I cannot see, or if the scratches cause a brake pulsation that drives you insane, then I would leave them as-is and ride them hard.

It is good that you have the 8-speed 7403 freehub, which takes a 8-10 speed Hyperglide cassette, as opposed to the completely orphaned and impossible to find cogs for 7400 and 7402 models.

Yes, you can install new rims if the number of spokes and the ERD is the same. I'll assume that the spokes are not mangled from getting tangled up with a racoon.

I also know that Mavic rims need to be measured, as the ERD tables that I have are unreliable.
Dave Mayer is offline  
Old 06-04-22, 07:48 PM
  #3  
rccardr 
aka: Dr. Cannondale
 
rccardr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,096

Bikes: Bob Jackson, Wizard, Pegoretti Duende, Merckx ProSLX, Pelizzoli, Cannondale ST, Schwinn Tempo, Schwinn Voyageur, Canyon Endurace, Richard Sachs, Davidson Discovery

Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1808 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times in 760 Posts
If you want to just replace the rims using the existing spokes and nipples, you are fine. From a measurement standpoint.
However, if the nipples are stiff and hard to turn, you may wind up replacing at least the nipplies.
__________________
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
rccardr is offline  
Likes For rccardr:
Old 06-04-22, 08:23 PM
  #4  
RustyJames 
Senior Member
 
RustyJames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 872

Bikes: You had me at rusty and Italian!!

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked 520 Times in 293 Posts
I can’t vouch for rim integrity but WTH tool was used to mount the tires?? (I’m guessing that is what caused the gouges.)
RustyJames is offline  
Likes For RustyJames:
Old 06-04-22, 08:51 PM
  #5  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,062

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3637 Post(s)
Liked 2,070 Times in 1,314 Posts
I agree with Dave that those scratches, as head-scratching and awful as they look, aren’t enough to replace the rims. They should smooth out with some riding. But, it might not be a bad idea to go ahead and buy a pair of Open Pro C’s for later. I noticed recently that Mavic’s site shows fewer color and drilling options, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they discontinued them entirely before too long.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 06-04-22, 11:39 PM
  #6  
gugie 
Bike Butcher of Portland
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10,677

Bikes: It's complicated.

Mentioned: 1178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4122 Post(s)
Liked 3,674 Times in 1,620 Posts
Secret decoder ring for spokes

Spoke Head Identification Chart

If you replace with the same rims, just tape the new rim to the old one, transfer the spokes to new rim, but best to get new nipples.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Likes For gugie:
Old 06-04-22, 11:56 PM
  #7  
GamblerGORD53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,033

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 950 Post(s)
Liked 170 Times in 139 Posts
WTF? You bought those crashed wheels online??
Throw them both in the trash.
GamblerGORD53 is offline  
Old 06-05-22, 12:19 AM
  #8  
noobinsf 
Senior Member
 
noobinsf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 3,077

Bikes: '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '83 Mercian KOM Touring, '85 Univega Alpina Uno, '76 Eisentraut Limited

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1007 Post(s)
Liked 987 Times in 599 Posts
Like Gugie said above, taping the wheel to the new rim and transferring spokes one by one will work if the ERD is the same. Incidentally, I did this last year in reverse, from Open Pro to Open 4 CD. I reused the spokes, but the nipples started disintegrating, so I just replaced them with new brass ones I had on hand.


noobinsf is offline  
Old 06-05-22, 12:21 AM
  #9  
gaucho777 
Senior Member
 
gaucho777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 7,217

Bikes: '72 Cilo Pacer, '72 Gitane Gran Tourisme, '72 Peugeot PX10, '73 Speedwell Ti, '74 Peugeot UE-8, '75 Peugeot PR-10L, '80 Colnago Super, '85 De Rosa Pro, '86 Look Equipe 753, '86 Look KG86, '89 Parkpre Team, '90 Parkpre Team MTB, '90 Merlin

Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 734 Post(s)
Liked 1,463 Times in 421 Posts
That is a lot of scratches. I think those scratches would drive me crazy, especially on a front rim. I would probably look to replace the rims.

Since you mention the scratches are only on one side, my guess is that the bike was regularly hung on a hook with a rough edge.

Just thinking out loud...maybe fill the scratches with bond-o and give them a light sanding to smooth out the surface? Might not look great, but hopefully the scratches are on the non-drive side and nobody will ever see them.

Switching over to new rims is a fairly easy task. And yes, you should be able to re-use the spokes.
gaucho777 is offline  
Old 06-05-22, 03:23 AM
  #10  
oneclick 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 2,052
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 764 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 810 Times in 497 Posts
I agree that it's rideable.

A lot of those scratches look as though the metal was displaced to the edges of the scratch rather than removed. I'd take a bit of steel with a smooth curved surface and burnish the scratches - it's probably soft enough that you can push much of that metal back.
oneclick is offline  
Old 06-05-22, 03:27 AM
  #11  
verktyg 
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,004

Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1990 Bianchi Mondiale, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA Team Pro, 1973 Holdsworth

Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked 1,134 Times in 615 Posts
Scratches In Rim Sidewalls

You Guys and wheel reinvention.... And you call yourselves experienced cyclists. etc. ect. etc..... SMH! hahaha!

Those side wall rim scratches are most likely caused by dropping down into or up against gaps in asphalt pavement that run parallel to the direction of travel,

They are most commonly seen in ageing asphalt which is a mixture of coal or petroleum tar, sand and gravel. In areas like the US Left Coast or Southwest where it doesn't freeze much and there are lots of HOT days a year, the volitiles in the asphalt slowly evaporate causing shrinkage and leaving gaps where the pavement layers butt up against each other or near the curb.

Road crews if and when they patch those cracks use sand and tar or a hot or cold patch of asphalt to fill the gaps. In the mean time, many of the lesser used roads and street, especially bike lanes and trails have those gaps or separations. They're the perfect size for a ~ 1" wide tire and wheel to drop down into and get those kind of rim scratches. Anyone who has ridden the Iron Horse Trail in the S.F. East Bay knows what I'm talking about. At night and or when it's raining I only ride my beater bikes on the Iron Horse because the gaps are harder to see. gaucho777

I have lots of those rim scratches on my beaters. Unless they cause pulsation or squealing, they're usually not a problem except in wet weather when they pick up grit that gets embedded into the brake pads and wear out rims fast.

The real problem for me is tire sidewall damage from running into those asphalt gaps. About 15 years ago I started riding these Continental Grand Prix 700 x 23c tires. They originally cost ~$43 on sale. In 2012 I bought 24 of them online for $12 each! The remaining ones I have still ride and handle great. The only problem I've had with them has been the limited amount of tread rap which doesn't provide much sidewall protection! It has resulted in a lot of sidewall gashes.



On the other hand, during the same time period I've run these Panaracer Pasela TourGuard 700 x 25c tires on a lot of my bikes with very few side wall problems. There is a lot more tread wrap on these that protect the sidewalls.


I'm not advocating one tire over the other, just suggesting that if someone is getting frequent tire sidewall damage, maybe they should look for some less trendy tires with more tread wrap.

Unless you move into something like 35mm+ wide tires very few will protect your rims from scratches when you run into a pavement gully.

verktyg Grumpy Old Man
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....

Chas. ;-)


Last edited by verktyg; 06-05-22 at 03:48 AM.
verktyg is offline  
Old 06-05-22, 04:39 AM
  #12  
randyjawa 
Senior Member
 
randyjawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 11,340

Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, 196? Torpado Professional, 2000 Marinoni Piuma

Mentioned: 202 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1272 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,407 Times in 790 Posts
The scratches, other than an eyesore are a non-issue provided that...

When faced with this problem, and I have been faced with it many times, I first ensure that the ridges created by the scratches are not higher than the surface of the rim. To correct this, I use a small broken piece of a very smooth file which I pass over the scratches. I do this only as much as required until there are no high spots. Do not try to remove the scratches as that will weaken the rim and eat into beer drinking time (I am Canadian). Once the high spots are gone (you can feel this with your finger tip), use the rim and the use will serve to further smooth the surface. Eventually, you will not feel any negative impact by the scratches.
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
randyjawa is offline  
Likes For randyjawa:
Old 06-05-22, 10:35 AM
  #13  
JacobLee
Total Scrounge
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 791

Bikes: 71 International 72 Super Course 83 Gap

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times in 259 Posts
Everybody's doing it...

JacobLee is offline  
Likes For JacobLee:
Old 06-05-22, 10:37 AM
  #14  
Steel1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 19 Posts
Thanks so much for the thoughtful replies!

As far as theories to how it happened, I believe it is possible the PO was Edward Scissorhands. Alternatively, the only tools available to PO were a few rusty 10 penny nails. Honestly, when I bought the bike off of the bay, I suspected there might be an issue with the rims, and the photos did not lie. I did ride them as shown for a few months, so they are not terrible, but maybe eat up pads (rare 7400 ones at that), and just bother me aesthetically.
There are similar scratches to paint under top tube, as if hung on sharp metal hooks. Who would do such a thing?
Otherwise, bike in great shape.
Original spokes look fine, no raccoon incidents.
Never knew there were spoke marking, like silversmiths. Thanks for link gugie. Mine have “S” with round dot at center of S. Honestly, I thought it might mean stainless, doh!
Will look at burnishing, filing, or sanding see if it can improve.
But noobinsf did exactly what I was thinking, so will probably end up going that route!
Steel1 is offline  
Old 06-17-22, 08:02 PM
  #15  
Steel1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 19 Posts
These arrived in the mail today! They look beautiful.

I read a lot of discussion about spoke prep… I am leaning towards the anti-sieze camp. Anyway, soon to find out how this swap goes.


Steel1 is offline  
Old 06-18-22, 07:03 PM
  #16  
gugie 
Bike Butcher of Portland
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10,677

Bikes: It's complicated.

Mentioned: 1178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4122 Post(s)
Liked 3,674 Times in 1,620 Posts
As a footnote, on my commute home from work I sometimes ride with a guy who commutes 20 miles roundtrip daily on his bike. He wears out rims yearly, so he standardized on a common rim and does the tape them together and transfer the spoke thing as shown above.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Old 06-19-22, 05:24 PM
  #17  
Steel1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 19 Posts
I just finished the front wheel, but have not put on tire or ridden yet. I expect to have to fine tune again after that.

Soaked old wheel nipples overnight with LiquidWrench. That was a good call, as I think some would have been seized otherwise, and risked stripping the nipple.
Used zip ties to hold two rims together.
The anti-seize made a bit of a mess with the black rims.
I had initially only tightened each nipple 2 full rotations. But it turns out several were not really screwed on, and fell off when I was opposite side of the rim, and the spokes started flopping about. Thats where the mess with anti-sieze came about… That was my only real hickup. Next time I will do maybe 10 turns initially.
True is not perfect, but decent. A tiny bit of hop in there.
Spoke length perfect.
Took me several hours just for one wheel.
Hope I am not boring anyone with my play by play









Steel1 is offline  
Likes For Steel1:
Old 06-19-22, 06:43 PM
  #18  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,062

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3637 Post(s)
Liked 2,070 Times in 1,314 Posts
Looks good!
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 06-20-22, 05:24 AM
  #19  
gugie 
Bike Butcher of Portland
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10,677

Bikes: It's complicated.

Mentioned: 1178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4122 Post(s)
Liked 3,674 Times in 1,620 Posts
Well done!

My only comment would be to invest in new nipples when doing the rim swap two step, but it looks like you made the old ones work just fine.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Old 06-20-22, 05:28 AM
  #20  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 3,301
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1217 Post(s)
Liked 1,154 Times in 668 Posts
Originally Posted by gugie View Post
As a footnote, on my commute home from work I sometimes ride with a guy who commutes 20 miles roundtrip daily on his bike. He wears out rims yearly, so he standardized on a common rim and does the tape them together and transfer the spoke thing as shown above.
I taped the rims together for my first swap back in the 1960s. Then I realized that rim swaps are just as easy to perform without using tape.
Trakhak is offline  
Old 06-26-22, 06:26 PM
  #21  
Steel1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 19 Posts
Follow-up.
As I mentioned at the outset, I had previously swapped out the old wheels for relatively modern Dura Ace C24 (16 spoke front/20 spoke rear). It seemed to me the C24, while saving a lot of weight, were not as stable as the old 36 hole wheels. Makes sense of course, but I was not sure.
So today I swapped out the C24 for the newly rebuilt 36 hole Open Pro, and sure enough the Open Pro were rock solid and very stable. Main difference is in the descent. With C24, I could feel some oscillation when I removed one hand from bar, say to switch from hoods to drops. With 36 spokes feels much better.
Has anyone else had same experience?
Honestly, I am a light rider, so 32 hole is probably good enough for me.
Also, wheels held true after first big ride, even though I used anti-sieze and lightly greased eyelets. The black rim color with silver spokes may take some time… I think I would prefer grey.
Steel1 is offline  
Old 06-27-22, 06:03 AM
  #22  
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,137

Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked 806 Times in 554 Posts
I did the direct rim swap thing about 15 years ago when I bought a pair of tubular rim wheels on eBay. Since I had given up tubular tires 40 years ago after moving to north coastal San Diego County and discovering goat head thorns, and since the rims were not all that great, anyway, I got a great deal on four brand new Campagnolo Omega 700C clincher rims. Wanting to keep the really nice 32-hole Campagnolo hubs, and since the spokes were in good condition, a direct rim swap was the obvious course of action, and it worked well. Having now worn down the sidewalls of the first pair of rims, I am ready to do a second cross-swap, but I do have a few nipples that are shot and require replacement. Any good sources on just spoke nipples, or do they come only with spokes?
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.