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Frame identification

Old 06-29-22, 12:38 AM
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JmanBuilder
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Frame identification

Any specific subsections of frame identification? Thanks!
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Old 06-29-22, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JmanBuilder View Post
Any specific subsections of frame identification? Thanks!












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Old 06-29-22, 02:48 AM
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Old 06-29-22, 05:40 AM
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Frameset details

I was told by seller that the original owner claimed it's a Limongi with SL tubing. Only markings are on the Silva brake bridge and "644" stamped on what looks to be a Silva bottom bracket shell. Headset is a Stronglight and apparently original to the bike. Paint is not original. Seatpost diameter is 26.8mm. Any help in identifying the frame would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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Old 06-29-22, 08:57 AM
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Very nice frame set interesting to see a frame of this quality with no identifiers on It. The alternative cable routing through the rear chain stay is a bit unusual other than that I see nothing that can really ID this bike, very nice find.
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Old 06-29-22, 09:10 AM
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Seems like there was a red bike that came through in the past year with the extra cable guide on the BB. It also had similar BB cable guides, but they were rounded loops and not as professional looking. Might have had similar seat stay caps as well.

Edit: I went back and found those threads. I was wrong The extra cable guide was on a red bike with a Cinelli BB that has a shield over the cable guides. The looped guides were on a blue bike. Neither had similar seat stay caps.

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Old 06-29-22, 12:26 PM
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I'm no Limongi expert, but his frame details were extremely varied, yet nothing seen on this frame jumps out as typical with any of the examples I have seen online.
I don't know for example that he favored Silva frame bits (brake bridge and/or BB shell), and tho I do see one that has this fork crown, many do not, and have not seen any with that staycap treatment which is distinctive, but then Limongi did a great variety of seat clusters, quite a few fastbacks.
Maybe one of our Canadian members have some more experience with ID-ing Pepe's frames. Are you located in Quebec, @JmanBuilder?

Note: if 26.8 is the correct seat post size, then this is not Columbus SL, might be Aelle, might be another brand
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Old 06-29-22, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
The alternative cable routing through the rear chain stay is a bit unusual….
Are you sure the cable is routed into the chain stay? I think that's just an optical illusion in the picture of the BB shell and there's clearly a cable stop under the chain stay in the first picture.
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Old 06-29-22, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ManekiNico View Post
Are you sure the cable is routed into the chain stay? I think that's just an optical illusion in the picture of the BB shell and there's clearly a cable stop under the chain stay in the first picture.
It looks like an extra guide from the underside cable guide to the chainstay stop. Unique.
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Old 06-29-22, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ManekiNico View Post
Are you sure the cable is routed into the chain stay? I think that's just an optical illusion in the picture of the BB shell and there's clearly a cable stop under the chain stay in the first picture.
Optical illusion indeed, the cable is not routed into the chainstay.
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Old 06-29-22, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
I'm no Limongi expert, but his frame details were extremely varied, yet nothing seen on this frame jumps out as typical with any of the examples I have seen online.
I don't know for example that he favored Silva frame bits (brake bridge and/or BB shell), and tho I do see one that has this fork crown, many do not, and have not seen any with that staycap treatment which is distinctive, but then Limongi did a great variety of seat clusters, quite a few fastbacks.
Maybe one of our Canadian members have some more experience with ID-ing Pepe's frames. Are you located in Quebec, @JmanBuilder?

Note: if 26.8 is the correct seat post size, then this is not Columbus SL, might be Aelle, might be another brand
I too haven't seen anything Limongi online to convince me that it is indeed a Limongi. The seatpost diameter does in fact rule ou SL tubing as you point out. I'm in New Brunswick and I believe the original owner was also from New Brunswick so perhaps a Canadian build, who knows. Definitely a high quality, light frame based on my still limited experience with vintage steel. I bought it without knowing who or what a Limongi was anyways. Should be a fun build. Thanks for the input! The search continues!
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Old 06-29-22, 02:34 PM
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-----

the false acorn nut brazed into the drive side seat binder ear almost looks like it could be a Gripfast item

this would be an odd choice since Gripfast seat binders are Whitworth thread



-----
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Old 06-29-22, 04:29 PM
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This may help what city and country are you located , most high end limited production bikes never leave the city wear there made?

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Old 06-30-22, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
I'm no Limongi expert, but his frame details were extremely varied, yet nothing seen on this frame jumps out as typical with any of the examples I have seen online.
I don't know for example that he favored Silva frame bits (brake bridge and/or BB shell), and tho I do see one that has this fork crown, many do not, and have not seen any with that staycap treatment which is distinctive, but then Limongi did a great variety of seat clusters, quite a few fastbacks.
Maybe one of our Canadian members have some more experience with ID-ing Pepe's frames. Are you located in Quebec, @JmanBuilder?

Note: if 26.8 is the correct seat post size, then this is not Columbus SL, might be Aelle, might be another brand
Lo and behold, the seat tube is 27.2mm! the lug had been squeezed quite a bit but I gently pryed it open and a 27.2mm seatpost fits perfectly all the way down. Perhaps it is SL Tretubi after all (no helical grooves to be seen). The supposedly original fork has zero markings other than the Columbus dropouts. Assuming the Stronglight A9 headset is original, it would date the frame post-1984. I've uploaded additional pictures but still can't post them unfortunately.
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Old 06-30-22, 08:34 AM
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With the exception of the numbers stamped into the BB shell, this reminds me very much of a Miele. They used that BB shell, with later versions having the Miele logo embossed on it. Also, the stay end treatment is that used by Miele on their better models. Finally, those dropouts are see on many Miele models.
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Old 06-30-22, 08:38 AM
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T-Mar getting close! And, that FD cable in the pic needs to be adjusted.
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Old 06-30-22, 08:46 AM
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I will say whatever it is, it's a beautiful frame.
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Old 06-30-22, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
With the exception of the numbers stamped into the BB shell, this reminds me very much of a Miele. They used that BB shell, with later versions having the Miele logo embossed on it. Also, the stay end treatment is that used by Miele on their better models. Finally, those dropouts are seen on many Miele models.
It reminds me of a Meile too. The dropout to stay treatment is exactly how Meile finished theirs. I went to their auction when they went bust and I got a lot of their framebuilding supplies. Among those materials are seat stay tops just like in the picture. In fact I could probably make a frame with what I got from them just like the one in the picture. I brought back some forks that looks just like the one in the picture too. Most of their forks had Miele embossed on the top of the fork crown but not all of them. I don't know about the serial # however.

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Old 06-30-22, 01:04 PM
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good thing you got the proper size seatpost in this and that it's a 27.2.
Sure seems like T-Mar has gotten very close to the mark, maybe even hit the bullseye, and that Doug Fattic adds fuel to this fire makes it all the more likely it's a Miele (or built by them for another brand, if they did such).
Did you check in the base of the steerer for "rifling" in that tube?
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Old 06-30-22, 08:02 PM
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​​​​​​It is starting to smell like a Miele. I hadn't even thought of Miele which is funny because I own an early-to-mid 1980s, lower end Tange, Suntour/SakaeRingyo equipped model (workmanship, weight and general feel are not comparable between the two frames). The rear dropouts are practically identical. I guess with Miele I expected the usual engraved "Miele" on the fork crown and serial number on the lower seat tube. I'm guessing the model can't be identified with the limited information we have? Perhaps a Lupa? Thanks again for helping out!
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Old 06-30-22, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
good thing you got the proper size seatpost in this and that it's a 27.2.
Sure seems like T-Mar has gotten very close to the mark, maybe even hit the bullseye, and that Doug Fattic adds fuel to this fire makes it all the more likely it's a Miele (or built by them for another brand, if they did such).
Did you check in the base of the steerer for "rifling" in that tube?
No obvious rifling but it's pretty filthy in there. I'll have to clean it up and have a better look at it.
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Old 07-01-22, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JmanBuilder View Post
​​​​​​It is starting to smell like a Miele. I hadn't even thought of Miele which is funny because I own an early-to-mid 1980s, lower end Tange, Suntour/SakaeRingyo equipped model (workmanship, weight and general feel are not comparable between the two frames). The rear dropouts are practically identical. I guess with Miele I expected the usual engraved "Miele" on the fork crown and serial number on the lower seat tube. I'm guessing the model can't be identified with the limited information we have? Perhaps a Lupa? Thanks again for helping out!

As previously noted by Doug, not all Miele models had brand embossing. The Miele models with serial numbers on the lower seat tube tended to be the lower end models that were contracted manufactured in Japan. The bridgeless BB shell and 27.2mm post diameter points to one of the higher end models, manufactured in Canada by Guvin.


If you find some ridges inside the the bottom of the fork's steerer tube, make note of how many there are and whether they are straight or helical, as other manufacturers such as Ishiwata and Tange were employing them by this date, though each had their own configuration.
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Old 07-01-22, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
As previously noted by Doug, not all Miele models had brand embossing. The Miele models with serial numbers on the lower seat tube tended to be the lower end models that were contracted manufactured in Japan. The bridgeless BB shell and 27.2mm post diameter points to one of the higher end models, manufactured in Canada by Guvin.


If you find some ridges inside the the bottom of the fork's steerer tube, make note of how many there are and whether they are straight or helical, as other manufacturers such as Ishiwata and Tange were employing them by this date, though each had their own configuration.
Off to catch some rainbow trout on the fly for the weekend, i'll clean everything up and have a closer look. Cheers!
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Old 07-01-22, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
Very nice frame set interesting to see a frame of this quality with no identifiers on It. The alternative cable routing through the rear chain stay is a bit unusual other than that I see nothing that can really ID this bike, very nice find.
through? I observed cast in guides under the bottom bracket shell and a cable stop below a bit before the unusual dropout.

note the derailleur tab is more aft than the Campagnolo form factor.
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Old 07-01-22, 09:08 AM
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I still have a bunch of 1" threaded steerers that came from Miele. They include several brands including several with internal ribbing. Columbus steerers are easy to identify because they are spiral. I haven't bothered to identify the Japanese ribbed steerers but my recollection (without going to check) is that there are 2 kinds. They are vertical instead of spiral. I also have some steerers without any reinforcing ribs. All of these steerers came from Miele. It appears to me that what brand of steerer they used was related to frame size.

I also have a lot of Miele fork crowns. I've been really thankful for them. They are perfect for brazing practice for my framebuilding class students before they braze their real fork. These full sloping crowns are the easiest for learners to braze. It is necessary for training purposes to start easier and build on success. Beautiful twin plate crowns require greater brazing mastery. As their instructor, I have to manage their emotions so they don't get discouraged or disappointed while on their learning curve. Starting with something too difficult can really hurt learning motivation.
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