Around 40 years ago my dad obtained a roadbike here in the Netherlands, after a decade or so he gave it to my uncle, who cycled more than 50.000km on it. (Chain stretch is sort of evidence of that.) My uncle bought a new bike around the year 2000. We assumed the old roadbike was traded in. My uncle recently passed away at 82 and we had to clear the house, to our surprise the old roadbike was still standing on the attic! Frame size is good for me, so I kind of want to restore it and do some light touring on it. I normally ride modern high end mtb's (on tarmac...) but would love to give this a go. It will sit in the living room for the rest of the time.

(Please be aware that I will screw up some terminology here!)
I posted the photos I took (in the exact "attic" state) on a FB vintage group and got some great valuable information back. With the new info collected I hope to continue the quest here. As I'm very new, I can't post photos yet, but I do have an album on my profile that can be viewed I believe. Sort of a copy paste link: "bikeforums.net/g/album/26052265"

Known:
The handlebar is a Belgian 1967 Titan (67 is engraved/stamped at the bottom of the bar)
The lugs are Prugnat 62S
The stays do not have a flat inner like Gitane.
The rear derailleur is from 1983
The tubing is almost certain Reynolds 531 (decal is almost gone but recognizable)
So far I did find no markings (numbers, names etc) on the frame or fork. bottom of the BB included.
The dropouts are Campagnolo
The bottlecage holes in the seattube are most likely added later, the decal was added before the holes...
The decals "Course" and the decal badge "Champion" are most likely generic decals added later. (It seems there is no connection with the Swedish brand "Champion". )
The seatpost diameter is 27.2mm (the current Campagnolo seatpost sits snug but not too tight or too loose.)
Stem is Mavic
Hubs are Campa Nuovo Record

Speculated:
Some users thought that this might be a Belgian frame, judging from the fork crown. Somebody showed a photo of a "Samyn" that had exactly this fork crown and the 62s lugs. As well as these longer almost touching seat stays in the seatpost area.
The front group/brakes seems to be a lot newer, and I think it was an upgrade done somewhere in the 90's. They are both Campa, for some reason the front derailleur itself is Shimano.

I would like to ID the correct brand, so I can eventually add fresh transfers of that brand to the bike.
My current plan is to strip it down to a frame and a fork, and have them checked for rust/safety. When ok, I most likely will have it sandblasted, filled if needed and powdercoated in a gloss orange. As the groupset etc already have changed over the years, I'm not too worried about keeping it "as is", it looks pretty much like riding was the main thing, and looks or keeping it brand consistent was secondary.

Thank you a lot for any help on this quest!!

Hi there,

I don´t know much about Belgian bikes. Crankset, brakes, seat, front hub and Shimano parts do not look period correct to me.
As you say, the frame material is probably Reynolds 531. Are the threads French, Italian or British?

I wouldn´t sandblast it. This might remove too much of the steel and round the edges of the lugs etc. Better remove the old paint with chemicals and check just how bad the rust is.

Bonne chance!
NR

I was not able to determine the threading yet. I hope to do this in the next few days. (next time I visit the bike, it is not yet at my home.)
Good point about the sandblasting, a chemical paint remover most likely will dissolve it just as well. Thank you!

The threads are, as you probably know, indicated on the rear hub, the bottom bracket cups, and the headset.

Uh - I wouldn´t powdercoat it either. Maybe it´s just me but I don´t like the look of that thick layer of "plastic" on the delicate lugs of a steel frame. It is probably a matter of taste.

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sounds like there might be benefit to posting it to veloretrocourse.proboards, if have not done so already...


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You can safely assume I know very little. BB and headset I wanted to check, will check the rear hub too. I have to dive into the threading topic a bit.
I was thinking about this powder coat issue as well, it might be too utilitarian, especially as it will only be out and about a fraction of the time. My other bikes are all powdercoated, but they are basically tractors.

machinist42 Thank you for adding some pictures!

juvela Not yet! Thank you for pointing me in that direction!

Did you say you have Campagnolo Record hubs? The thread would be indicated between the hub shell and the freewheel.
In later years, they indicated the thread and added words like "Italy", "England" or "France".
In earlier years, you may not find any numbers there but just a groove ==> English thread!
No groove ==> Italian or French Thread! The freewheel might help finding out more. If you have, e. g., a Regina freewheel, it is probably an Italian thread. If you have a Maillard freewheel, I guess it would be French.

Nuovo Record The hubs do say that. Good info! I might speed up the process to get this bike at home, so that I can start the disassembly and take a much longer look at it.

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frame appears early 1970's

cycle has had lots of changes of kit o'er the decades

suspect it may have originally been assembled into a cycle at the retailer level, common practice in BE

you should get some solid and detailed help over at veloretrocourse


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quite an interesting frame/fork: you have ID'd many of these things very well: the lugs and components, etc. and clearly this is a quality 531 DB frame but made in earlier times than a lot of the components were: long dropouts (Campy 1010 with eyelets), clips for nearly everything and very few original braze-ons which points to a 1970's vintage frame that someone added the WB bosses on the seat tube, at a later time.

The seat stay tops are what we call a semi-wrap-over; the stem is a (rare) Mavic "grooved" model which MIGHT be a good clue since here we usually see them with a 26mm bar grip and a 22.2 quill, which would tend to mean the fork is not FR specs. Yep those look like Maes bars, could be sold as Titan and very likely made in Belgium, also tends to point to "late 1970s".

I think something's wrong with the BB cable clip, the cables seem too high but can't verify from the one side view pic, check into that.
The forkcrown appears to be another good clue but can't call it by a name, might be a variation of a BCM 28 or a Georg Fisher, someone here may recognize it.

Threading of BB, HS/fork are the next crucial clues.

Just FYI: if you don't want the mess of chemical stripping at home, hereabouts there are commercial "blasters" than use softer less aggressive media than sand, such as walnut shells or plastic beads even glass beads would be gentler than "sand".
If your chrome plating is worth preserving they can wrap it with heavy protective tape before blasting, otherwise expect to lose that chrome.
But don't use anybody who you can't trust with a vintage bicycle frame!

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Vetnherder -

you have not as yet heard from any of our payes bas members

perhaps they are away at a weekend event

they should be able to give some solid assistance when they drop in...

there is a strong liklihood that the frame was contract built for a retail shop and sold under what is called in english a "house brand"

when the original transfers are present it is sometimes possible to trace back and learn the actual builder

when they are gone the only hope is for an expert to spot a detail, or combination of them, unique to a particular builder

its possible that even with the experts looking at it you may not get any identification suggestions...

fabiofarelli LucasHartong JaccoW non-fixie


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Thank you guys!

Yesterday when typing this reply, I got the message that I was allowed 5 posts in 24 hours and that I had to wait. Sorry for that!

unworthy1 Thank you for the added info! I can't really take credit for most of the info that is found so far.
The handlebar is dated "67" (What I learned online was that Titan stamped the production year at the underside of the handlebar at some point, and I found 67 there.) I will check and photograph all these sections once the bike is at my home. I probably will accelerate that a little and pick it up tomorrow.

There is a pro frame repair/paint shop here in the Netherlands, most likely going to hand the frame over "as is" and let them handle it. (has to be done correctly) The chrome is in pretty decent shape compared with the paint of the frame.
It seems my uncle and dad did not really mind the state of the paint/parts with glue remains of old decals still visible... Bit strange, as my dad used to be meticulous with his other bike (A Gazelle Champion Mondial criterium from 1988)
For now this one is blank canvas to me. (But I happen to like orange as a color, so that might indeed just return as it was.)

juvela I was not aware it was this deep of a mystery. Very cool! I looked up the veloretrocourse forums, can I (eventually) just post a topic in English there? (It seems very French!)

The fork crown looks a lot like the one on the Téval I acquired recently:



Edouard Téval worked as a mechanic for Plume Sport, before taking over his parents' bicycle shop in Berchem and starting out on his own. He had his frames made by Plume Sport, and those are generally marked on the BB shell with "PS" and a serial number. However, I would not be too surprised to find one without those marks, as this was common practice for Belgian frame builders when working for other shops.

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note similarity of chainstay stop and guide

note similarity of joinery treatment of taper tubes to frame ends

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Vetnherder -

the moderator at the veloretrocourse forum, Munny, is a member here and has knowledge of the english tongue

Munny


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Very nice! The BB seems quite different, but I also suspect the frame of non-fixie to be slightly older than my own. The similarities are interesting!
My frame also has quite similar oval supports on the rear brake mount strut I have to check that again when the bike is here.

If you have a few hours, grab a beer and have a look here: Plume Sport Anderlecht-Bruxelles

I will take a look! (afraid the beer is espresso in my case)

P.s. I also stumbled across this one, and it also matched a lot of the frame details. (On the other hand I have seen so many frames the last few days I might be entirely out of it)
Half link, as I'm still too new: you figure out the www part before this: dcisite.be/en/visitors/bikes-min-66/geminiani

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the TEVAL posted by non-fixie "looks" to be early-to-mid 1960's while your frame "looks" early 1970's

the lug pattern on the TEVAL is Agrati "ROMA" ART. 000.8020/E/U

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That Geminiani certainly has some matches too: lug set, forkcrown (the "G" crown has "milling" on the front face of crown, OP's appears smooth there, so something to check when OP has the bike in hand) and the cable braze-ons on the chainstay, semi-wrap seat cluster...but not sure about BB shell.
If the OP's is FR-built I might expect it would use metric 531 tubing and with a 27.2 seatpost that's out, HOWever, the Geminiani uses an English Reynolds decal, not French.
Interesting?

The Geminiani is dated in the 50's (according to the website), perhaps that would explain the different BB shells? (BB itself on my bike seems to be a replacement, likely upgraded with the campa crank.) Reynolds decal on mine is also in English. (what is left of it)
Tomorrow the bike will (finally) be at my home, so I can more easily check things. (and disassemble without loosing parts...)

Thanks! BTW, the serial number makes my Téval a '67 build.

The Reynolds decal might offer a clue. Can you post a picture of it, now that you have your 10 posts...? =)

I suggest you also examine the stem. If it is 22.0 mm (instead of 22.2), your bike is probably French.

Back! Sadly it is 5 posts + 24 hours, then 5 post + 24 hours until you have 10. (So I hope to be "free" now)

The bike is at my home now, so that should make things a bit easier.

Nuovo Record Here is a picture of the tube decal: