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More rod brakes: A rough 1957 Triumph Princess

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More rod brakes: A rough 1957 Triumph Princess

Old 12-11-22, 07:56 PM
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More rod brakes: A rough 1957 Triumph Princess

A local friend rolled this one over after not a single LBS would take it on (the usual). This is what appears to be a UK-spec, 1957 (by Sturmey AG), Triumph Princess, a rough equivalent to the Raleigh Dawn Superbe Tourist: Rod brakes, green paint with an AG, and a chaincase. Seems as if the "Prince" line got the cable brakes according to this catalog scan: https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/19...953-catalogue/

And yes, it is rough, but not enough for an OA bath not to fix. However, I am throwing up the "HELP!" flag right now for a pair of rims. Someone obviously rode this Triumph frequently enough for the pads to wear out the chrome on the braking surface of the rims, leaving the bare spots to rust over the years. These are EA3 32/40 Westwoods. I don't mind if the replacement rims are a later era, we just need something that'll make the bike ridable. If you've got something, send a PM.

(P.S.:, Oh wise scribe of C&V secrets, @nlerner...got any by chance?)



While this is a Raleigh-built, homogenized Triumph, it still carries all the Superbe goodies - green finish, filter switch unit, AG hub, and the mid-1950's variation of Sturmey-Archer lighting that differs from both the earlier round sphere front / pill-shaped rear light combo of the 1950's, and the later chromed 1960s/70s variants.







"57 / 3"



I'm used to seeing the no-frills sphere shaped front lights and pill-shaped rears of the late-1940s and early 1950's; this one is a bit more space-age.



Anyone recognize the grips? The goo doesn't remind me offhand of anything, though it looks thick enough to have been a John Bull Super Club - but too short.



Lycett saddle has held up fairly well over the years:



Slightly fancier crown stamping than in later years. @Ged117, I don't recall - is this the same on your Triumph?

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Old 12-11-22, 07:57 PM
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Tires seem a bit worse for wear



As I said, I can't make these rims work. Interesting that the secondary brand to Raleigh didn't get Raleigh's patented (at the time) stainless spokes.



Should be interesting getting this one ridable again. Will probably be the first victim for the VAR cotter press currently on the way from @Mad Honk.

Incidentally, any good deals on EA3 tires as of recent? Blackwall, non-directional tread pattern preferable. This is one of two bikes I'm doing (yes, everyone will get to see the other one too), so I'm also open to any sources where combined shipping works for multiple tires ordered.

-Kurt
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Old 12-12-22, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
I don't mind if the replacement rims are a later era, we just need something that'll make the bike ridable. If you've got something, send a PM.
Lycett saddle has held up fairly well over the years:
Slightly fancier crown stamping than in later years. @clubman, I don't recall - is this the same on your Triumph?
Nice bike...as you say, it appears to have the top tier spec instead of the B-line kit. The fork crown cap is cool.
I'll look for rims later today but they wouldn't be westwoods, maybe used westricks with some life left in them?
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Old 12-12-22, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by clubman
Nice bike...as you say, it appears to have the top tier spec instead of the B-line kit. The fork crown cap is cool.
I'll look for rims later today but they wouldn't be westwoods, maybe used westricks with some life left in them?
Looks familiar! They kept this going into the early 1960s at least.

PXL_20220916_163626604.MP
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Old 12-12-22, 09:25 AM
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Are those Father Brown bikes?
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Old 12-12-22, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ged117
Looks familiar! They kept this going into the early 1960s at least.

PXL_20220916_163626604.MP
Nice. You wanted rims as well iirc?
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Old 12-12-22, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by clubman
Nice. You wanted rims as well iirc?
The rims on my Sports are OK - good enough to see through winter at least. I may consider aluminum CR18 650a later on.

Thanks, though.
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Old 12-12-22, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman
Nice bike...as you say, it appears to have the top tier spec instead of the B-line kit. The fork crown cap is cool.
I'll look for rims later today but they wouldn't be westwoods, maybe used westricks with some life left in them?
I'm worried whether the factory rod system has the adjustment to bring the stirrups a half inch further away from the rim, but that may be the only option. At that rate, I'd also like to buy any spokes that might have been part of the wheels, as the current ones will be too long.

I know some of the folks on the Facebook Raleigh Roadsters group might have the Westwoods ones, but there hasn't been any activity approved to that group in ages. The admin, Rowan De Bonaire, has also fallen off the face of the earth.

Originally Posted by Ged117
Looks familiar! They kept this going into the early 1960s at least.
I actually meant to tag you about this bike, but crossed my wires with @clubman. The interesting thing I noted between your later Triumph and this one is that the crown itself is slightly more ornate on the '57, but other than the additional details, it is the same exact casting used on secondary brand Raleighs into the 1970's.

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Old 12-12-22, 07:26 PM
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I don't think I can make you happy Kurt. I've got two sets of 50's Westrick wheels, neither with stainless centres and both sets have serious corrosion. Not as bad as yours mind you but not worth unlacing and shipping across the border.
I do have a rather clean 32 hole rim with some speckling but it's likely 60's/70's. Rim only, no spokes. I can get a price for you if you'd like. If you reference some charts, I may have correct chrome or galvanized spokes with plated brass nipples should you want them. Some are 14, others are 15 gauge.


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Old 12-14-22, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by clubman
I don't think I can make you happy Kurt. I've got two sets of 50's Westrick wheels, neither with stainless centres and both sets have serious corrosion. Not as bad as yours mind you but not worth unlacing and shipping across the border.
I do have a rather clean 32 hole rim with some speckling but it's likely 60's/70's. Rim only, no spokes. I can get a price for you if you'd like. If you reference some charts, I may have correct chrome or galvanized spokes with plated brass nipples should you want them. Some are 14, others are 15 gauge.
No worries - they don't have to be stainless either.

All things considered, I would rather not have to respoke unless it's for period Westricks. No point in adding all the cost of spokes if it winds up in a less-than-original combination.

I've looked at some of the modern Westwood repops available on eBay right now, but it's about $120 USD for a pair of bright steel hoops. Overpriced in my book, but they might brake nicer than used originals full of flat spots.

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Old 12-21-22, 01:03 AM
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Tore this one down today for its brightwork and "whatever-fit-in-the-bin" OA bath.



Had a chance to put Mad Honk's VAR cotter press to work for the very first time:



The left hand cotter had lost its nut long ago and the threads were slightly damaged, so I didn't attempt to install a nut on it to avoid rounding out the threads.

This turned out to be a worry that was completely unnecessary. Apparently, with the VAR press, you don't really need to worry too much about that. Just put the tool on, pull the lever , and "POP!" - out comes the cotter. It's just as satisfying as it sounds.



"POP!"



Found evidence of the double box lining under the clamps too. This Triumph is literally a Raleigh Superbe Dawn Tourist with a different badge on it.



Gradually filling up the OA bath:



What may be original Dunlop No. 4 brake pads:



Completely stripped:



Out of curiosity, I hung it next to the frameset of my previously OA-bathed, rusted-from-the-Florida-Keys 195x Raleigh Superbe Tourist that I run away from and come back to every now and then. Pretty much the same color. I expect the Triumph to come out a bit better than the much more abused Superbe Tourist.






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Old 12-21-22, 08:16 PM
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What of Triumph bikes' advertising/catalogues survives from this period? I haven't found much. Most of the 3-speed triumphs I come across these days are 70s traffic masters, sometimes with the AG dynohub, sometimes not.
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Old 12-21-22, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Cute Boy Horse
What of Triumph bikes' advertising/catalogues survives from this period? I haven't found much. Most of the 3-speed triumphs I come across these days are 70s traffic masters, sometimes with the AG dynohub, sometimes not.
There are a few low resolution scans at the Online Bicycle Museum of the 1953 catalog:

For instance: https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/19...953-catalogue/

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Old 12-22-22, 08:12 AM
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My Rudge with cable/caliper brakes came with a 40h Westwood (yikes!) so I will dig it out and start the ATF/acetone juice after I move the snowblower out of the way.
Sorry- with a 1960 AW hub I forgot it is a 36h (in great shape rim) and I need to relace a with a Dunlop 36h I was gifted.
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Old 12-23-22, 08:15 PM
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I haven't OA'ed the frame yet (ran out of it too, time to reorder the stuff), but the fork has...which means it's polish time once again.






End result isn't great, but certainly not bad considering what it started out as:





The rust spiderwebbing is definitely still here, but it should be kept at bay for a while now. The polish and wax should help fill in some of the porosity.



Of course it's bent. I wouldn't have it any other way.




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Old 01-17-23, 09:01 PM
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Made a lot of progress on this over the last few weeks. First off, chrome bits fresh out of the OA bath - photographed on one of my filthy benches, especially for whoever in the Annoyances thread complained about messy workbenches.





Frame, chaincase, and fenders into the OA bath:



Out of the bath and fogged up, but surface rust is by no means as bad. This is after a few days of letting it dry off. I sometimes give frames a light spray of WD40 to help repel water out of the pores of the paint, depending on how they react; this one got it.



Frame's bent...



... and not anymore.



When you see a dent like that in one of these frames, chances are the entire rear triangle is tweaked. It was.

It was also a pain in the butt to get it centered where it was supposed to be, but it is straight as an arrow now.



Polish time.



Beginning reassembly. Rods had to be straightened out; they had more bends in them than some pastas.





More in next post.
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Old 01-17-23, 09:01 PM
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Not everything polishes up that well, but this picture shows one of the best spots. Definitely an improvement over what it looked like before.





The chaincase did not fare so well. Paint lifted off the front, but the rest is fine. Can't explain this one, but it just goes to show that paint can be a finicky thing to deal with.





Where it is at the moment. Time to enter into the "how much money do you really want to pour into this thing?" discussion of rims, tires, grips, pedals, and rear reflector.

And a replacement chaincase, ideally; the loss of paint drags down everything that was achieved polishing the rest.



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Old 04-05-23, 07:26 PM
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Finally, some progress. We wound up getting the current repop Westwood rims that are on eBay. While they look decent, they are downright impossible to true. One side might be decent; the other side is a bent wobbly mess.

I'd throw them out and start again if I had a choice, but that's obviously not in the cards; I'm already overbudget.



A repop reflector replaced what was left of the original:



Opened up the AG and found it basically brand new inside - and dry as a bone. At worse, some surface rust on the planet cage.



Back together and slathered in 00 grease.





The rebuilt rear wheel - only two spokes had to be replaced, but that didn't stop the new Westwood from fighting me every step of the way.



Chain cleaned up and installed:



Buttoned up. I believe I still need to dig up another period-correct left-hand washer for the rear axle. And another cotter nut.



-Kurt
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Old 04-07-23, 06:55 AM
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@cudak888 wrote: "...I still need to dig up another period-correct left-hand washer for the rear axle."

Because the C&V washer police might issue a warrant?
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Old 04-07-23, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
@cudak888 wrote: "...I still need to dig up another period-correct left-hand washer for the rear axle."

Because the C&V washer police might issue a warrant?
I am my own worst officer.

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Old 04-29-23, 10:03 PM
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Progress (finally). I've had the frame back together for a while now, but hadn't been happy with the work on the fork. For some reason, I set it to 90mm OLN instead of 80mm, and also noted that one blade was still about 3mm ahead of the other. Not really eager to struggle with a loose-bearing headset again, I procrastinated for three weeks. Admittedly, this gave me a moment to re-dish the front wheel after realizing the truing stand was out of whack; I finally got my fingers on a Unior alignment tool to sort that out.

Whatever the case, I tore everything apart again today, perfected the alignment, checked it, reassembled it, realized the blades appeared to be kinked forward too much, tore it all apart again, brought the blades back to the headtube centerline, verified it, and buttoned it all back together. Then a friend came by with a 1960's Bianchi with the integrated Campagnolo headset, and I wound up dealing with no less than 56loose bearings in a single headset. Oy vey.

There's still a slight bit of play in the headset that I can't seem to nail down, but I'm pleased with what I've got so far. If I have to take it all apart to knurl the crown race sea- well, never mind for now!

No pictures of the pain, just the pleasure of the results:




















Also - if anyone can help - I'm still looking for that early Sturmey rear axle washer for the rear wheel. Also a period Raleigh seatpost binder bolt, Raleigh Industries kickstand, and perhaps a spare aftermarket SA shifter cable if anyone can spare it - the last one at the LBS went on my Moulton and I don't get why an el-cheapo cable kit should cost $20 on Amazon - when all I want is the inner cable and nothing else.



-Kurt
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Old 05-01-23, 03:03 PM
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The aftermarket 3-speed cable on my Moulton snapped at the trigger shifter yesterday, which made me realize there's no reason I shouldn't be soldering my own ends for both sides on my Sturmey cables. So I did, using some of my trusty brass tubing:



And here's the result, complete with that ridiculously overpriced Yokozuna cable housing.











For those curious as to what the ends look like, here's what the one on my Moulton looks like before I solder it:



-Kurt
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Old 05-01-23, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
For those curious as to what the ends look like, here's what the one on my Moulton looks like before I solder it:



-Kurt
What kind of solder do you use? I tried Silver bearing solder (Stay-Brite8), but had a heckuva time.
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Old 05-01-23, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gna
What kind of solder do you use? I tried Silver bearing solder (Stay-Brite8), but had a heckuva time.
I haven't been able to solder stainless cables yet; this is galvanized. I use this syringe-based liquid solder paste injected onto the surface to get things started: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The paste tacks it down, then I feed a really thin roll of silver bearing solder in one end. I'll check to see what it is; it's a roll that was given to me at work by one of the IT techs; it was used for basic PCB repairs.

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Old 05-01-23, 08:38 PM
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Excellent work, as always!
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