keidal

Hello,
I bought this Italian ? frame some time

















ago as a refurbishment project and ever since I've been trying to find out who built it, without success.
Can anyone identify it please ? There are no marks of any description on the frame, only a 5C punched on to the fork steerer tube. There are no rivet holes on tne head tube for a badge. The frame appears to have been refinished at some time in the past - possibly powder coated.
I will measure the tube diameters and the seat post diameter would need to be 25 mm or so, as the seat tube top is mis-shaped The bottom bracket is 70 mm with Italian threads.
The rear drop-out is 105 mm

jdawginsc 

If 68mm, it should be BSA.

joesch

See Hearts cut into frame lugs?

@fredrico has a nice post in above link as below

Yeah, all the suits of a deck of cards: Hearts for DeRosa, Clubs for Colnago, Spades for Ciocc, and Diamonds for Pinarello. Quatro Assi has all four. Richard Sachs has all four on the inside tang of his flat fork crowns. They'll bring ya good luck, the luck of the draw.

ciao,
Fredrico

juvela

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ACER-MEX for example constructed many thousands of cycles with 68mm Italian threaded shells

certainly do not wish to suggest any ACER-MEX connection here; mentioned as example only


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JohnDThompson 

Not necessarily. Shell width is unreliable in predicting thread spec. The shell could have been overzealously faced, or started out BSA, got damaged/stripped, and was reamed and re-tapped Italian. I assume that the OP determined it was Italian by threading an Italian thread cup into the shell, or measured the inside diameter of the threads as 36mm rather than BSA 35mm.

MooneyBloke

Or French or Swiss. (Ugh!)

Lugs appear to be minimally reworked Prugnat. Wish I had a nice ID on the BB Shell. Nothing terribly elegant about the chain stay bridge.

jdawginsc 

Interesting. Did not know that.

MooneyBloke

I don't see these as much hearts as wings echoing the external shoreline of the lug.

jdawginsc 

I thought about reaming after I posted...

Which begs the question, can Campy Italian cups (36X24) be used with an BSA 68mm spindle?

juvela

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yes indeed, unlike T.A. & Stronglight* the Campag Italian thread cups have the same wall thickness as the metric and BSC threaded ones (within a given series such as R, NR, etc.)

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*

T. A. & Stronglight make the walls of their Italian dimension bottom bracket cups one mm thicker than those of their BSC, metric and CH ones

this permits them to get by with one series of cotterless spindles

the system is ingenious but has downsides:

a) it renders difficult fitment to 70mm BSC shells as employed widely by Flandria for example

b) unable to accommodate the 74mm shells found on some vintage Italian cycles

c) unable to fit the 71mm BSC shells found on many Japan produced cycles (shell width used up through early 1970's as copy of a Raleigh dimension)


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unworthy1

Made by somebody who didn't bother leaving any identifying marks: it appears to be a production frame of "good quality" but perhaps not any thoroughbred.
If the BB is Italian threading, then also check the inside butt of the fork steerer for any "rifling" and what size seatpost fits the seat tube?
And forkends and DOs are what brand?
One detail is there are no reinforcing tangs on the fork blades: some folks here say that's a clear deficiency cause the crown alone will not give the blades enough strength, but I dunno...
one more thot; only a 5C punched on to the fork steerer tube...isn't that something like a "date of manufacture" code like Tange used? If the fork ends are JP then this may not be the OEM fork.

juvela

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readers note that shell width has now been revised in original post from 68 to 70

date appears ca. 1973

possible fork crown may be a ROTO (Rampinelli) design -



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JohnDThompson 

And many more thousands of Sekines and other bike-boom era Japanese bikes used 70mm BSA thread bottom brackets.

oneclick 

That's an interesting rear dropout - stops for both Campag and Huret AND a boss for the Campag Sport upper knuckle spring.

JohnDThompson 

Yes, although Campagnolo bottom brackets of that era are a hot mess, what with "thick" (Nuovo Record) and "thin" (Gran Sport, Record) cups, pre- and post-CPSA offset changes, etc. Sugino and Sakae Ringyo spindles are fairly close to Campagnolo Gran Sport/Record spindles in physical dimension, and generally work with Campagnolo "thin" cups.
Campagnolo Bottom Brackets

keidal

It has chromed Campagnolo fork and rear drop-outs.
Atala and De Rosa street racer / cyclo-cross.
Possible braze-ons added later.
De Rosa type slots on underside of bottom bracket and oval cut-outs in bb shell

machinist42

Could that "5C" actually be "50," which appears to be, C to C, the size of this specimen?

Fiorelli didn't serialize much of their work, only stamping the size on the steerer tube and sometimes on the BB shell.


In the early 70s Fiorelli used BB shells with those slotted double cutouts, finished dropout ends as with this example, and stay ends are not inconsistent either.
Olmo also used the dual BB shell slot cutouts, but they featured a Serial Number.

jdawginsc 

Very well could be Fiorelli. Very similar style to my Aelle (I think) built one.

juvela

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if cycle a Rizzato product at this era it would exhibit a serial stamped into the side of the seat tube just below the seat lug

this practice followed regardless of how Rizzato products were badged




to confirm or deny possibility of a Rizzato origin all that is needed would be to gently sand this area of the seat tube to see if any markings may have been filled in or filed away

the company owned something like six or eight marques...and did make extensive use of the Prugant 62/d lug pattern on its quality models

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keidal

Thanks for your replies.
There are no numbers, letters or any other marks on the frame.
As far as I know, Fiorelli early frames had distinctive circular fork crown ends.
A friend has suggested that it might be a Galetti frame

juvela

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member MauriceMoss sure to be able to sort this in two shakes of a lamb's tail

it has been a few weeks now since he last dropped in so perhaps he is getting close to time for a visitation...

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wrt Fiorelli tubular crowns:

"some" examples of certain era received them and many did not

so their absence is not definitive of non-Fiorelliness...


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Doug Fattic 

I have many of those same bottom bracket shells in my inventory. I use them as brazing practice for my frame building class students. I got them from Miele in Toronto when they closed their doors in 1995. So it is possible that the frame might have been made in Canada. Well among many other possibilities.

keidal

Does anyone have a photograph of a Fornoni frame please, for comparison ?

unworthy1

"Fornoni"?
I've heard of hundreds of Italian marques but that's a new one!
AFIAK it doesn't show up on the (nearly comprehensive) big Map of Italian Cycle Brands AKA Italia Bicycle Map, but there's always gonna be a few that didn't get included, especially if "Fornoni" was in the South (or out of country), so tell us more about that brand.

EDIT: came across your other post
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...noni-frme.html
asking for info on Fornoni and @juvela posted many links to articles on the racer (and Olympic champ in 1960) Giacomo Fornoni.
There's no mention of him fronting a bicycle brand but it's a common tradition in Italy for a successful racer to cash in on his name applying it to a bicycle (contract-built by a multitude of makers). He did race for Molteni...FWIW but this frame in question doesn't ring any bells with attributes of (oh say) Colnago or DeRosa, IMO
He seems to have been from Bergamo, also FWIW

letrebici

Very cool lugs!