jPrichard10 

I never liked the look of Phils and didn't understand the hype, but a wheelset fell my way with first gen Phils and they spin like nothing else. I have them on my Trek now but I have a couple questions.

1. There's a little bit of side to side play. With any other cup and cone hub, I'd say I needed to pre-load the bearings, but of course that's not an option for me with these. Is a little play normal, and considering these are supposed to be burly bearings, can I assume it's fine to continue riding these with a tiny bit of lateral play? It's not a lot, just about what you've get with cup and cone + no pre-load.

2. I've been slowly chasing out my freewheel hub after I broke my first axle (probably happened while the bike was packaged on a plane, not from heavy riding). Phil's ha e that little sleeve that goes over the axle, and maybe the axles are even beefier on these than normal hubs. Are Phil Hubs still just as prone to the design flaws of freewheel hubs, or does something about them make them more impervious to the forces of seven sprockets on a freewheel?

Classtime 

Someone with PW hub experience will surely come along but,...

I researched this issue wrt to vintage high end sealed bearing hubs and the everpresent play. The take away was: expect and accept some play or go cup and cone. I've since unloaded some very very nice hubs that I really really wanted to make work.

ehcoplex 

The Phil hub that I have (early version, steel center cyllinder) didn't have a sleeve over the axle- the think that looks like a sleeve is actually part of the axle- well, part of the extension of the axle that is really just press-fit onto the part of the axle that's just a bit longer than the hub body (you can see in the photo below the extension is a little off-angle on the hub- it had been bounced around in shipping and I first thought the axle was bent, but it just needed to be pushed firmly back on). Initially I though 'hmm, this multi-part axle design doesn't seem like it would be very strong.....', but this hub had been on a tandem for a couple decades (and is on a tandem now) without problem. I'm not a PW expert or anything, but I've never heard of axles breaking on a PW hub.

mpetry912 

a little bit of side play is normal. When your weight is on the bike you will not notice it.

The phil axle is very beefy and the axle end caps are pressed together with interference fit.

if you're referring to the freewheel remover, remember that the Phil setup uses the splined nut in the FW and a "cup" on the other side to ensure that axial forces are not transferred to the bearing when the freewheel comes loose.

hope this helps

/markp

repechage

When marshaling the bike around that play just makes noise in a way like a loose headset. Good hubs, of an American alternative.
Optional on a Confente at launch. So endorsed.
Kareem’s bike employed them. The stronger rear axle was the reason.
Keep them and be like the Big Man.

Chombi1 

The small amount of side to side play seems to be normal with the early Phil Wood hubs. I found out it seems to get cancelled out when the wheelset is mounted on a bike and the skewers apply compressive force on them.

repechage

that is a hopeful view. Not in my experience.

Chombi1 

if you look hard enough, this topic about the Phil Wood hubs had been discussed quite a bit in the net in the past....

cyclophilia 

I wrecked the bearings on an Avocet sealed bearing front hub once by tightening up the cones to reduce the side-to-side play.

repechage

Original Phil Wood - typical American Tolerances at work.

Erzulis Boat 

Vintage Phil Wood hubs were the product of limited resources. A small operation with minimal tooling can make sealed bearing (cartridge) hubs with ease. Cup and cone require way more resources and capabilities, bearing inserts, grinding centers to heat-treating etc.

By utilizing readily available (and inexpensive) cartridge bearings, you can produce a hub that will do the job. Especially in the era of the freewheel. Chris King had to invest a lot of money to produce the cassette hubs we see today, and now Phil Wood offers a cassette hub.

Where the Wood hubs "shone" was in that some inherent cup/cone issues were eliminated by the sheer simplicity and diameter of the inner "axle". Due to the very nature of a cartridge bearing (design/construction) they will always have some "play" but not enough to matter for the most part. They are very robust, but will never be as slick as a super high-end cup/cone. They got a reputation for being "silky smooth" but that mostly stems from resistance from the seals giving the impression of absolute precision. Pop the seals on a PW hub, and run light grease/oil and you will detect some radial/axial play quite easily even with QR installed properly. It's just in the nature of the design.

I run Phils on my single speed, but mainly just to have some variety in my collection.

repechage

[QUOTE=ehcoplex;23074893]The Phil hub that I have (early version, steel center cyllinder) didn't have a sleeve over the axle- the think that looks like a sleeve is actually part of the axle- well, part of the extension of the axle that is really just press-fit onto the part of the axle that's just a bit longer than the hub body (you can see in the photo below the extension is a little off-angle on the hub- it had been bounced around in shipping and I first thought the axle was bent, but it just needed to be pushed firmly back on). Initially I though 'hmm, this multi-part axle design doesn't seem like it would be very strong.....', but this hub had been on a tandem for a couple decades (and is on a tandem now) without problem. I'm not a PW expert or anything, but I've never heard of axles breaking on a PW hub.


[/QUOT
Appears a bit leaning tower of Pisa like.

mpetry912 

the "play" in the bearings is radial. Unlike cone and cup bearings, no amount of "tightening the skewer" will close it up.

The good news is that the Phil axle is very beefy and large diameter, so you're unlikely to damage the hub by over tightening the skewer

/markp

Kabuki12

The first set I got came on a bike and I noticed it when I was checking out the bike. I bought the bike anyway figuring I would replace the hubs with Campy Record high flange. I showed the bike to a local bike shop owner who knew all about Phil hubs. He told me it was normal and that I would be better off with the Phil hubs than the Campy hubs, but try it the way it is and decide. That was 7 years ago and that bike rolls very nicely with about the same play it had when I got the bike. I now have another set on my Raleigh Pro, love ‘em!

The Golden Boy 

I have an old set of Phil/Modele 58 40 spoke wheels- fantastic wheels- but they're heavy.

I have 2 newer Phil wheels- absolutely stunningly fantastic.

IMG_0091 by 1969TGB, on Flickr


IMG_0079 by 1969TGB, on Flickr


IMG_1727 by 1969TGB, on Flickr

ehcoplex 

Yeah, the box they were shipped in was really chewed up by UPS, and I thought somehow the axle had been bent, until I did some searching and learned about how the Phil hubs were put together. Some firm pressure, and the extension popped back into place.