Litespeed failure
12-29-23, 01:00 PM
#76
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To pah the OP, I've been a custom framebuilder for almost 50 years. That includes being a fitter to know how to design a custom frame off of their position. During that time almost half my customers were women. What I can tell you from looking at the picture of her setup on her beloved Litespeed is that her racing position on that bike is not what she will now find optimum over 25 years later - especially if she has back issues. Most women in the middle of their life would prefer having their handlebars at least as high as their saddle. The Dura Ace stem on her bike can not be raised high enough. The amount of drop she has now is way more than most could tolerate. Take this opportunity to improve her bicycle. I recommend finding a fitter with an adjustable fitting bicycle that can find what position works best for her now and will for the next 10 years. And once you know her position you can find the frame that matches that position and will work best for her now and in the future. It will be a challenge but a good challenge.
The Lynski brothers that started Litespeed sold the business and waited 5 years until they could start their own ti frame business again. I wouldn't waste any time, emotional effort or money trying to fix her old frame. If for some reason you went that route I would recommend sending it to the ti business the Lynski brothers now own. But why waste the money on something that isn't optimum anymore? I can tell you there are real complications to making a frame for small women. I don't want to get into the weeds on solutions if that isn't the route you want to go. If Cycling is important to her, get what works best.
The Lynski brothers that started Litespeed sold the business and waited 5 years until they could start their own ti frame business again. I wouldn't waste any time, emotional effort or money trying to fix her old frame. If for some reason you went that route I would recommend sending it to the ti business the Lynski brothers now own. But why waste the money on something that isn't optimum anymore? I can tell you there are real complications to making a frame for small women. I don't want to get into the weeds on solutions if that isn't the route you want to go. If Cycling is important to her, get what works best.
I appreciate your input as a frame builder! We had a much taller stem on the bike and switched it out for the pictures for the attempted warranty figuring they would say it was too much stress from the high handlebars. She had a very agressive riding posistion back in the day, even more so on the track. We were in the process of trying to get an even higher stem which seem to exist now, when the bike shop noticed the crack.
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12-29-23, 02:53 PM
#77
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agree with Doug Fattic (previous post)
and in addition to better fit for the next frame / bike - could also use that opportunity to equip the bike with lower gearing than the existing gearing (if any climbing is on the menu)
on the Litespeed bike - there were / are additional methods to raise the handlebar - including a threadless adapter, innicycle threadless conversion headset, etc which could allow threadless stem options
it was unfortunate the steerer on the Kinesis fork was cut flush (short)
I have the same fork on an old road bike (pictured above) - but included additional steerer length (and spacer) to raise the handlebar
Last edited by t2p; 12-29-23 at 03:00 PM.
12-29-23, 04:06 PM
#78
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or commission a custom frame build with a sloping top tube
/markp
/markp
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12-29-23, 06:53 PM
#79
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Reminds me that I also need to bring in my similarly aged 1/2" drive ratchet that still works but will sometimes skip under heavy loading.
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12-29-23, 09:15 PM
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Yeah. titanium shouldn't just randomly crack like that. Either it was a factory weld defect, or something vibrated/impacted/deteriorated the structure since it was last ridden.
Was the bike racked or transported on a frame-held car rack in its life? I can't figure what would cause this hickey...
Was the bike racked or transported on a frame-held car rack in its life? I can't figure what would cause this hickey...
12-30-23, 08:46 AM
#81
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Flip side. A repair might require 4 oz of titanium and a bunch of ecologically cheap labor. Landfilling that frame and getting a "new" one might mean that another 2 pounds of titanium are mined, smelted, formed, cut and welded. That frame did fail at the most stressed part of the frame. Yes, where the most attention should be applied when welding, not "nobody is going to see my stacked dimes here". But if a substantial repair can be made, it is a decent bet that the frame could go on to many more good miles of life. Or that the next failure is at a place of simple fix. And one of the beauties of ti frames is that the fix is so easy to make look good. Brush out with the appropriate emery cloth. Done.
12-30-23, 09:58 AM
#82
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And not knowing if there is further or additional perhaps stress related potential to arguably the most ??? can't think of a work to describe it...And your wife is going to continue to ride this after a repair? I'd not ride it but then again I have no monkey in this circus...good luck
On the other hand... you can argue that if there was another significant workmanship flaw, it would also be visible. Perhaps just pull the parts off the frame (which has to be done to get it fixed) and really check the frame for cracks. Maybe even Magnaflux it? (is that still a thing?).
I suppose the decision might hinge on the cost of the repair of the crack, as well as how happy the owner was with the frame.
I do like Mark's suggestion to use this as an excuse to go out and get a custom.
Steve in Peoria
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12-30-23, 09:59 AM
#83
framebuilder
Allow me as a custom builder (who no longer takes orders but still teaches framebuilding classes), why getting a custom frame may be the best option for replacing her Litespeed. That is of course if you can afford it. Especially because she is shorter and lighter than average. Production frame/bike design is ruled by liability. Above all else they have to make sure there is toe clearance with a 700C front wheel. To do that they steepen the seat angle and make the head tube angle shallower. This may work okay in a few cases (and especially if it is a performance rider in a go fast postion) but not for most recreational riders that prefer sitting a bit more upright. Because your wife is a former racer, she will know how to ride with some overlap. So her frame design can consider that. Smaller wheels for smaller people just make so much sense! Not as much has to be compromised! And a smaller frame with smaller wheels looks more proportional too with the top and down tube not squished together.
Production companies don’t know how fat a customer might be so they way overbuild the tubing thickness to avoid breakage. Matching the tubing diameter and wall thickness to the rider can make a big difference is ride quality. A custom builder can make that adjustment.
Similarily a company has to assume a rider will pedal through corners and compensate with a higher bottom bracket height. Your wife may use shorter 165 cranks and the frame design can relate to that. A discussion on BB height can be bring up various points of view but my strong preference is to have it as low as possible.
A custom frame can be adjusted so everything can look more proportional (besides the wheel size). For example the head tube can be extended up a bit so there aren’t as many stackers under the stem. And maybe just a little more to compensate for higher handlebars as one ages.
Back to the problem of a seat tube angle. There is a relationship between handlebar height and seat angle. Racing bikes have steeper seat angles because the cyclist is going to have a lot of handlebar drop for efficiency. On the other extreme, an upright sitting city/utilitarian bike will have a very shallow seat angle. This is just an estimate but it is likely your wife will discover that her seat angle for a recreational fit will be shallower than what can be used on a production frame with 700C wheels.
And of course the frame design can be tailored to the kind of riding she will be doing.
Choosing a good fitter/builder can be a chore in itself.Not all of my collegues that have great hand skills have wonderful bedside manners.But I encourage you to explore that option.There are more compromises made in production frame design for shorter women than what an average man has on a production frame.
Production companies don’t know how fat a customer might be so they way overbuild the tubing thickness to avoid breakage. Matching the tubing diameter and wall thickness to the rider can make a big difference is ride quality. A custom builder can make that adjustment.
Similarily a company has to assume a rider will pedal through corners and compensate with a higher bottom bracket height. Your wife may use shorter 165 cranks and the frame design can relate to that. A discussion on BB height can be bring up various points of view but my strong preference is to have it as low as possible.
A custom frame can be adjusted so everything can look more proportional (besides the wheel size). For example the head tube can be extended up a bit so there aren’t as many stackers under the stem. And maybe just a little more to compensate for higher handlebars as one ages.
Back to the problem of a seat tube angle. There is a relationship between handlebar height and seat angle. Racing bikes have steeper seat angles because the cyclist is going to have a lot of handlebar drop for efficiency. On the other extreme, an upright sitting city/utilitarian bike will have a very shallow seat angle. This is just an estimate but it is likely your wife will discover that her seat angle for a recreational fit will be shallower than what can be used on a production frame with 700C wheels.
And of course the frame design can be tailored to the kind of riding she will be doing.
Choosing a good fitter/builder can be a chore in itself.Not all of my collegues that have great hand skills have wonderful bedside manners.But I encourage you to explore that option.There are more compromises made in production frame design for shorter women than what an average man has on a production frame.
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12-30-23, 10:57 AM
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Allow me as a custom builder (who no longer takes orders but still teaches framebuilding classes), why getting a custom frame may be the best option for replacing her Litespeed. That is of course if you can afford it. Especially because she is shorter and lighter than average. Production frame/bike design is ruled by liability. Above all else they have to make sure there is toe clearance with a 700C front wheel. To do that they steepen the seat angle and make the head tube angle shallower. This may work okay in a few cases (and especially if it is a performance rider in a go fast postion) but not for most recreational riders that prefer sitting a bit more upright. Because your wife is a former racer, she will know how to ride with some overlap. So her frame design can consider that. Smaller wheels for smaller people just make so much sense! Not as much has to be compromised! And a smaller frame with smaller wheels looks more proportional too with the top and down tube not squished together.
Production companies don’t know how fat a customer might be so they way overbuild the tubing thickness to avoid breakage. Matching the tubing diameter and wall thickness to the rider can make a big difference is ride quality. A custom builder can make that adjustment.
Similarily a company has to assume a rider will pedal through corners and compensate with a higher bottom bracket height. Your wife may use shorter 165 cranks and the frame design can relate to that. A discussion on BB height can be bring up various points of view but my strong preference is to have it as low as possible.
A custom frame can be adjusted so everything can look more proportional (besides the wheel size). For example the head tube can be extended up a bit so there aren’t as many stackers under the stem. And maybe just a little more to compensate for higher handlebars as one ages.
Back to the problem of a seat tube angle. There is a relationship between handlebar height and seat angle. Racing bikes have steeper seat angles because the cyclist is going to have a lot of handlebar drop for efficiency. On the other extreme, an upright sitting city/utilitarian bike will have a very shallow seat angle. This is just an estimate but it is likely your wife will discover that her seat angle for a recreational fit will be shallower than what can be used on a production frame with 700C wheels.
And of course the frame design can be tailored to the kind of riding she will be doing.
Choosing a good fitter/builder can be a chore in itself.Not all of my collegues that have great hand skills have wonderful bedside manners.But I encourage you to explore that option.There are more compromises made in production frame design for shorter women than what an average man has on a production frame.
Production companies don’t know how fat a customer might be so they way overbuild the tubing thickness to avoid breakage. Matching the tubing diameter and wall thickness to the rider can make a big difference is ride quality. A custom builder can make that adjustment.
Similarily a company has to assume a rider will pedal through corners and compensate with a higher bottom bracket height. Your wife may use shorter 165 cranks and the frame design can relate to that. A discussion on BB height can be bring up various points of view but my strong preference is to have it as low as possible.
A custom frame can be adjusted so everything can look more proportional (besides the wheel size). For example the head tube can be extended up a bit so there aren’t as many stackers under the stem. And maybe just a little more to compensate for higher handlebars as one ages.
Back to the problem of a seat tube angle. There is a relationship between handlebar height and seat angle. Racing bikes have steeper seat angles because the cyclist is going to have a lot of handlebar drop for efficiency. On the other extreme, an upright sitting city/utilitarian bike will have a very shallow seat angle. This is just an estimate but it is likely your wife will discover that her seat angle for a recreational fit will be shallower than what can be used on a production frame with 700C wheels.
And of course the frame design can be tailored to the kind of riding she will be doing.
Choosing a good fitter/builder can be a chore in itself.Not all of my collegues that have great hand skills have wonderful bedside manners.But I encourage you to explore that option.There are more compromises made in production frame design for shorter women than what an average man has on a production frame.
David Kirk and I once tried to have a conversation on a forum about tubing selection for light riders, but then the (other) forum mods closed the thread. I was basically asking if there was a tubeset for lugs that was actually so thin walled that it would behave like .8/.5/.8 does for a 140 lbs rider when someone 5'3" and 105 lbs was riding. It seemed like the answer was "probably not", given the stiffness of small frames and the diameter limitations of lugs. Maybe TIGing the whole frame out of top tubes and seat stays would make it flex appropriately.
The "best" small rider frame I've seen was a custom Seven my boss designed when I was at Cronometro. 700c wheels, 50.5cm TT and a very shallow HTA that took advantage of Seven's customizable rake carbon fork to bring the trail to neutral. I'm short enough to have test ridden it, and it was great. And not so dissimilar to the geometry of the 50cm 1989 Cannondale I had that did the same trick with rake on the SR Prism fork it came with. People do not like non-700c wheels.
12-30-23, 04:02 PM
#85
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Its probably over 30 years old by now, alot can happen during that time . If there is no warranty , getting a replacement frame is the way to go. Repairs are Co$tly .
Last edited by Manny66; 12-30-23 at 06:53 PM.
12-30-23, 06:36 PM
#86
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After reading this thread, one conclusion is obvious to me. Although I’m fairly certain that all of my Ti bicycles are intact but I should carefully and thoroughly inspect them.
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12-30-23, 06:52 PM
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No disrespect or offense to any of our esteemed stalwarts here but if this frame was sold with a "Lifetime guarantee", it should be honored by the entity still responsible.
I was an ASE and FOMOCO Senior Master technician for 25 years.
I spent plenty of time figuring out problems on vehicles with myriad warrantee's, add ons, recalls, TSB's etc. ad nauseum, sometimes 10 years and or 100k miles down the road.
All the while doing it for factory labor rate that was often %50 percent or less than normal wage.
If you're going to offer and sell it as such, stand behind it.
I was an ASE and FOMOCO Senior Master technician for 25 years.
I spent plenty of time figuring out problems on vehicles with myriad warrantee's, add ons, recalls, TSB's etc. ad nauseum, sometimes 10 years and or 100k miles down the road.
All the while doing it for factory labor rate that was often %50 percent or less than normal wage.
If you're going to offer and sell it as such, stand behind it.
12-30-23, 08:23 PM
#88
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No disrespect or offense to any of our esteemed stalwarts here but if this frame was sold with a "Lifetime guarantee", it should be honored by the entity still responsible.
I was an ASE and FOMOCO Senior Master technician for 25 years.
I spent plenty of time figuring out problems on vehicles with myriad warrantee's, add ons, recalls, TSB's etc. ad nauseum, sometimes 10 years and or 100k miles down the road.
All the while doing it for factory labor rate that was often %50 percent or less than normal wage.
If you're going to offer and sell it as such, stand behind it.
I was an ASE and FOMOCO Senior Master technician for 25 years.
I spent plenty of time figuring out problems on vehicles with myriad warrantee's, add ons, recalls, TSB's etc. ad nauseum, sometimes 10 years and or 100k miles down the road.
All the while doing it for factory labor rate that was often %50 percent or less than normal wage.
If you're going to offer and sell it as such, stand behind it.
12-30-23, 10:28 PM
#89
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12-31-23, 01:08 AM
#90
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Adding subsequent buyers to the contract would raise the price of a prohibitively-expensive frame yet higher for something that the buyer doesn't even want in most cases, and which might void the warranty abruptly if the company goes out of business for lack of sales and/or for having to replace 20 to 30-year-old frames.
We can at least credit this company for not having gone out of business, for not filing chapter 11 but instead selling their still-solvent company to another entity who inherited the responsibility of fully honoring legitimate warranty claims.
12-31-23, 01:14 AM
#91
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https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/warranty_policy/
https://litespeed.com/pages/warranty
https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/warranty
12-31-23, 01:25 AM
#92
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Bike warranties are only to the original owner. Welcome to bicycling.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/warranty_policy/
https://litespeed.com/pages/warranty
https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/warranty
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/warranty_policy/
https://litespeed.com/pages/warranty
https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/warranty
Lawyers, boilerplate and CYA were not as widespread when this frame was made.
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12-31-23, 01:26 AM
#93
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It's often written into a fairly-written contract that the warranty extends only to the original purchaser.
Adding subsequent buyers to the contract would raise the price of a prohibitively-expensive frame yet higher for something that the buyer doesn't even want in most cases, and which might void the warranty abruptly if the company goes out of business for lack of sales and/or for having to replace 20 to 30-year-old frames.
We can at least credit this company for not having gone out of business, for not filing chapter 11 but instead selling their still-solvent company to another entity who inherited the responsibility of fully honoring legitimate warranty claims.
Adding subsequent buyers to the contract would raise the price of a prohibitively-expensive frame yet higher for something that the buyer doesn't even want in most cases, and which might void the warranty abruptly if the company goes out of business for lack of sales and/or for having to replace 20 to 30-year-old frames.
We can at least credit this company for not having gone out of business, for not filing chapter 11 but instead selling their still-solvent company to another entity who inherited the responsibility of fully honoring legitimate warranty claims.
This is clearly a failure IMO and other experts here.
They knew it was a gamble at the time, hence the warranty, they had to incentivize to sell the idea and people bought in with that in mind.
Last edited by merziac; 12-31-23 at 02:31 AM.
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12-31-23, 02:29 AM
#94
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frame was purchased brand new from Alan's bicycles in Willmingon Delaware in mid to late 90's. He does not have receipt and neighter do we of course. going to go look at frame again to see what you are looking at. yeah, the frame is old but I have a 84 Colnago that hasn't cracked and I know it was crashed hard more than once!
Bike warranties are only to the original owner. Welcome to bicycling.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/warranty_policy/
https://litespeed.com/pages/warranty
https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/warranty
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/warranty_policy/
https://litespeed.com/pages/warranty
https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/warranty
It's often written into a fairly-written contract that the warranty extends only to the original purchaser.
Adding subsequent buyers to the contract would raise the price of a prohibitively-expensive frame yet higher for something that the buyer doesn't even want in most cases, and which might void the warranty abruptly if the company goes out of business for lack of sales and/or for having to replace 20 to 30-year-old frames.
We can at least credit this company for not having gone out of business, for not filing chapter 11 but instead selling their still-solvent company to another entity who inherited the responsibility of fully honoring legitimate warranty claims.
Adding subsequent buyers to the contract would raise the price of a prohibitively-expensive frame yet higher for something that the buyer doesn't even want in most cases, and which might void the warranty abruptly if the company goes out of business for lack of sales and/or for having to replace 20 to 30-year-old frames.
We can at least credit this company for not having gone out of business, for not filing chapter 11 but instead selling their still-solvent company to another entity who inherited the responsibility of fully honoring legitimate warranty claims.
Whether they do so or not speaks volumes.
I know they have survived tough times but that is no excuse to pass it on.
12-31-23, 06:00 AM
#95
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Agreed, but if they cannot produce a equal to receipt document from then clearly stating that, then they should make good on it.
This is clearly a failure IMO and other experts here.
They knew it was a gamble at the time, hence the warranty, they had to incentivize to sell the idea and people bought in with that in mind.
This is clearly a failure IMO and other experts here.
They knew it was a gamble at the time, hence the warranty, they had to incentivize to sell the idea and people bought in with that in mind.
That said, the practice of offering a lifetime warranty on a bicycle frame originated with Schwinn in the 1950s as a marketing tool meant to underline that their frames were of higher quality than their competition (Rollfast, Columbia, Murray, etc.).
As a result, Schwinn dominated the U.S. recreational bike market for the next couple of decades. Any bike brand that hoped to compete with Schwinn had to offer a lifetime frame warranty. Even European brands that offered no frame warranty at all elsewhere in the world had to match Schwinn's frame warranty here.
So Litespeed had to do a lifetime warranty, or else risk losing a significant proportion of sales. They presumably would have incorporated a prediction of future warranty claims into their frame pricing. Their weasel-worded statement posted earlier in this thread (essentially, "We'll call it a lifetime warranty but c'mon, you can't seriously believe we'll cover decades-old frames under warranty") would have me looking elsewhere for a titanium frame.
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12-31-23, 06:51 AM
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The Litespeed warranty wording from 1997 can be found here (last page of catalog). It's pretty clear that it applies only to original owner with proof of purchase, so independent of whether the failure falls under "manufacturing defect", the lack of proof of purchase means OP does not meet conditions.
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12-31-23, 09:21 AM
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Location: Aurora, Illinois
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Bikes: 2003 Litespeed Classic Ti, 1960 Frejus Supercorsa, 2015 Rocky Mountain Blizzard, 2001 Cannondale F700
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Send it back to Lynskey... they were the ones who welded it in 1997. 
12-31-23, 10:11 AM
#98
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OP is the original owner and even without the receipt, the original selling shop knows this, Litespeed has an opportunity to do the right thing here, period.
Whether they do so or not speaks volumes.
I know they have survived tough times but that is no excuse to pass it on.
Whether they do so or not speaks volumes.
I know they have survived tough times but that is no excuse to pass it on.
12-31-23, 12:42 PM
#99
Senior Member
It's often written into a fairly-written contract that the warranty extends only to the original purchaser.
Adding subsequent buyers to the contract would raise the price of a prohibitively-expensive frame yet higher for something that the buyer doesn't even want in most cases, and which might void the warranty abruptly if the company goes out of business for lack of sales and/or for having to replace 20 to 30-year-old frames.
We can at least credit this company for not having gone out of business, for not filing chapter 11 but instead selling their still-solvent company to another entity who inherited the responsibility of fully honoring legitimate warranty claims.
Adding subsequent buyers to the contract would raise the price of a prohibitively-expensive frame yet higher for something that the buyer doesn't even want in most cases, and which might void the warranty abruptly if the company goes out of business for lack of sales and/or for having to replace 20 to 30-year-old frames.
We can at least credit this company for not having gone out of business, for not filing chapter 11 but instead selling their still-solvent company to another entity who inherited the responsibility of fully honoring legitimate warranty claims.
If someone who is carefully keeps their receipts and warranty papers can check what Litespeed actually says, it would be useful to the original poster. [I have a 1996 Litespeed Catalyst but I tend to not be all that careful in hanging on to receipts of various trinkets for decades so I cannot help.]
I checked all of my Ti bikes today, thankfully, none of them have any cracks. I did discover an oversight on my part, the Ti mountain bike which I use as my winter bike with studded tires wasn’t washed thoroughly at the end of winter season - I was a bit surprised, but it is what it is.