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chainstay stop screams UK chainstays are rapier pattern (conical and undimpled) which always means anglophone origin h2o not original date near to 1970 headset cobbled together from bits dog's breakfast kitting indicates assembled from whatever was in the parts bin dimples in seat stay tops most distinctive feature - may have been added post-manufacture threading and tubing diameters will be BSC original spaceing would have been 100mm front and 120mm rear brake centres likely to be 52mm saddle pillar size 27.2mm cutouts in shell may be post-manufacture check fork ends to see if they match dropouts check steerer for possible markings forum frame experts will have more & better information for you member MauriceMoss may see a combination of details to suggest a perpetrator ----- |
That is remarkable that you can tell that… never knew that about chainstays!
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high flange hubs you mention appear to be ordinary quality quick release skewers appear to be sansin matsumoto (sunshine brand) here is the manufacturer's catalogue page for the frame's ends set it will help you to determine if fork ends are a match for dropouts https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cd1c6a0b2d.jpg --- the roughness of the bottom bracket cutouts suggests they were accomplished by someone drawing around a flexible template with a marking pen and then making the cutouts with a hand held tool such as a die grinder this suggest that seat stay dimples may have been added by same person at same time a framebuilder who wished to put cutouts into a bottom bracket shell would have a means of achieving the result more professionally --- should you be able to locate a serial its placement and format may be clues which can possibly advance the inquiry --- the present build is unlikely to be the cycle's first; it may be the second or it could be the n-th you have some very nice fittings there such as the Phil Wood bottom bracket, Campag Record saddle pillar, Cinelli model 1A stem & DuraAce components which are paired with some ordinary calibre ones such as headset, brakes, hubs, pedals this latest assembler may have gotten the frame bare or as a partial cycle and completed it with what they had or could find --- the forum has framebuilder members who shall be able to write more knowledgeably regarding your machine ----- |
Fork ends do not match. Hubs are mondo f-2000 which are hard to find info on, found one track set but that’s it
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I doubt this helps in any way to ID the bike, but for what it's worth I believe the registration sticker is from Montgomery County Maryland. I grew up there and had a sticker like that on my bike.
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The fork clearly doesn't go with the frame because the front tire is pretty much kissing the downtube. The fork looks straight but there's a crack in the paint where downtube meets the lower headtube lug. Maybe it's just the backyard special paint job. If Heinz 57 made bikes back in the day I think this would of been the perfect specimen. Lol.I'd think something lower end with the lower 1060 Campy dropouts.
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Originally Posted by AeroGut
(Post 23160597)
I doubt this helps in any way to ID the bike, but for what it's worth I believe the registration sticker is from Montgomery County Maryland. I grew up there and had a sticker like that on my bike.
:thumb: the fifth letter of the first word certainly appears to be a G the licensing transfer fits right in timewise cycle licenses in the U.S. are typically issued for a term of three year a 1975 expiry date puts the granting in 1972 which fits well with the rough birth time for the frame --- few lower end frames are constructed with forged seat binder ears, mitred-in seat stays, Reynolds rapier pattern chainstays, BOCAMA Super Legere nr. 2 pattern lugs, BOCAMA Professional bottom bracket shells ----- |
Originally Posted by juvela
(Post 23160417)
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chainstay stop screams UK chainstays are rapier pattern (conical and undimpled) which always means anglophone origin h2o not original date near to 1970 headset cobbled together from bits dog's breakfast kitting indicates assembled from whatever was in the parts bin dimples in seat stay tops most distinctive feature - may have been added post-manufacture threading and tubing diameters will be BSC original spaceing would have been 100mm front and 120mm rear brake centres likely to be 52mm saddle pillar size 27.2mm cutouts in shell may be post-manufacture check fork ends to see if they match dropouts check steerer for possible markings forum frame experts will have more & better information for you member MauriceMoss may see a combination of details to suggest a perpetrator ----- Looks a nice enough frame, but not much effort was put into thinning or refining lugs. |
Looks kinda home brew to me.
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Originally Posted by nlerner
(Post 23160632)
Looks kinda home brew to me.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8eb8e1a5e.jpeg |
Originally Posted by juvela
(Post 23160611)
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:thumb: the fifth letter of the first word certainly appears to be a G the licensing transfer fits right in timewise cycle licenses in the U.S. are typically issued for a term of three year a 1975 expiry date puts the granting in 1972 which fits well with the rough birth time for the frame --- few lower end frames are constructed with forged seat binder ears, mitred-in seat stays, Reynolds rapier pattern chainstays, BOCAMA Super Legere nr. 2 pattern lugs, BOCAMA Professional bottom bracket shells ----- |
Dimples And Digits In The Details?
Originally Posted by juvela
(Post 23160417)
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chainstay stop screams UK chainstays are rapier pattern (conical and undimpled) which always means anglophone origin ... -----
Originally Posted by deeky
(Post 23160424)
That is remarkable that you can tell that… never knew that about chainstays!
Dimple?
Originally Posted by deeky
(Post 23160479)
Fork ends do not match. ...
Could you please remove the front wheel and take a photograph of the fork ends? Are these numbers under the grunge on the underside of the Bottom Bracket shell? https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a254e66a3e.png It may aid identification of the frame if more and better pictures of frame details are provided? (Better images can be captured on a bright sunny day, but in the shade. (Less washout and fewer shadows.)) Is the seatpost 27.2? Is the bottom bracket English threaded? Roughly where are you? (DC?) Thank you for sharing your interesting acquisition, the frame of which does appear to be of quality. |
Originally Posted by machinist42
(Post 23160691)
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...86bfd29a33.png
Dimple? So are the front fork ends "Tange?" Could you please remove the front wheel and take a photograph of the fork ends? Are these numbers under the grunge on the underside of the Bottom Bracket shell? https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a254e66a3e.png It may aid identification of the frame if more and better pictures of frame details are provided? (Better images can be captured on a bright sunny day, but in the shade. (Less washout and fewer shadows.)) Is the seatpost 27.2? Is the bottom bracket English threaded? Roughly where are you? (DC?) Thank you for sharing your interesting acquisition, the frame of which does appear to be of quality. I hope to have it apart sometime this week -- can take better photos and measurements then. I am in central Pennsylvania. Bike was purchased from a non-bike person in East Berlin, PA. No idea where he got it from. I had assumed the reg. was for Montgomery County, PA, but could be MD as well. Thank you for the help. I'll post those pictures soon, hopefully. |
Several features (the 3-slot BB shell, Campy 1060 Vertical DOs, those headlugs and the "Dutch style" seat cluster) sure are things I've generally only seen altogether on Brit-built frames, BUT could be a kit-built from something like Proteus...If I had to make a guess I'd pick one of the marques that did similar "milling" of the BB shell, but none are a slam-dunk match.
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I would check the threading on the seat binder bolt. The Brits used a Whitworth 9/16" during the classic period. I don't know when they switched to metric binders. Sometimes they can be M8 in other countries or M6. When I was learning to build frames in England in 1975, almost all binder bolts were not metric but rather Whitworth threading. See if it is metric or Whitworth. Besides the threads it is possible to tell by the size of the hex key too. That binder on this frame looks like it was made by Andrew Hague in the UK.
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
(Post 23163276)
I would check the threading on the seat binder bolt. The Brits used a Whitworth 9/16" during the classic period. I don't know when they switched to metric binders. Sometimes they can be M8 in other countries or M6. When I was learning to build frames in England in 1975, almost all binder bolts were not metric but rather Whitworth threading. See if it is metric or Whitworth. Besides the threads it is possible to tell by the size of the hex key too. That binder on this frame looks like it was made by Andrew Hague in the UK.
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https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...45ab50cfa.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d06ebc342.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fc058c8a2.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...51557cc0a.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...75686c18f.jpeg Here are some additional photos now that it is taken apart (man that stem was stuck in there!). Serial number reads 8128 on BB shell. Tried checking vintage UK serial number info and didn't get much of anywhere. |
Also the Mondo F-2000 hubs are marked 1137-F and 1137-R (obviously front and rear). Seemingly impossible to find info on these Mondo hubs...
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thank you for the additional imagery upon withdrawal of fork from frame were you able to discover any marking on steerer? now that fork out you could check interior of head tube for any sign of headplate fastener holes being filled in the four digit serial would seem to eliminate the possibility of a kit frame as has been suggested earlier ----- |
Originally Posted by juvela
(Post 23160417)
chainstay stop screams UK
chainstays are rapier pattern (conical and undimpled) which always means anglophone origin headset cobbled together from bits https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...48a16fd2b.jpeg check fork ends to see if they match dropouts https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...74ad0dd8c.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...45ab50cfa.jpeg |
:popcorn
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Originally Posted by juvela
(Post 23170243)
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thank you for the additional imagery upon withdrawal of fork from frame were you able to discover any marking on steerer? now that fork out you could check interior of head tube for any sign of headplate fastener holes being filled in the four digit serial would seem to eliminate the possibility of a kit frame as has been suggested earlier ----- I've attached a close up of the seat binder -- cut out work is not particularly precise, matching the thoughts about the BB shell cutouts. The frame itself is remarkably light, and I have a few 80s / 90s handbuilt steel frames that it seems comparable to (going by memory since those bikes are built up so take that with a massive grain of salt...). https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b893dab24.jpeg |
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thank you for the additional information our master frame detective member [MENTION=383399]MauriceMoss[/MENTION] has visited the forum and posted messages since this thread was begun but has not as yet contributed to it perhaps he missed it or may have nothing to add had been looking forward to reading his observations... ----- |
Originally Posted by juvela
(Post 23170797)
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thank you for the additional information our master frame detective member [MENTION=383399]MauriceMoss[/MENTION] has visited the forum and posted messages since this thread was begun but has not as yet contributed to it perhaps he missed it or may have nothing to add had been looking forward to reading his observations... ----- i will post another update once i strip the paint... |
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