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Need help identifying frame!

Old 02-18-24, 12:32 PM
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Need help identifying frame!

Hello! Picked up bike number infinity today. Dura ace / crane crank / derailleurs, weinmann 500 brakes, cinelli stem, copper brooks saddle — a nice, light ride. 27 inch wheels, which I may keep thanks to those beautiful high flange hubs.

Anyway, no idea what make the frame is — any help? Looks like a repaint, but also has a registration sticker from 1975 so who knows. Campy dropouts.

Any help is appreciated. Thank you!











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Old 02-18-24, 02:11 PM
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-----

chainstay stop screams UK

chainstays are rapier pattern (conical and undimpled) which always means anglophone origin

h2o not original

date near to 1970

headset cobbled together from bits

dog's breakfast kitting indicates assembled from whatever was in the parts bin

dimples in seat stay tops most distinctive feature - may have been added post-manufacture

threading and tubing diameters will be BSC

original spaceing would have been 100mm front and 120mm rear

brake centres likely to be 52mm

saddle pillar size 27.2mm

cutouts in shell may be post-manufacture

check fork ends to see if they match dropouts

check steerer for possible markings

forum frame experts will have more & better information for you

member MauriceMoss may see a combination of details to suggest a perpetrator


-----
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Old 02-18-24, 02:20 PM
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That is remarkable that you can tell that… never knew that about chainstays!
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Old 02-18-24, 02:37 PM
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-----

high flange hubs you mention appear to be ordinary quality

quick release skewers appear to be sansin matsumoto (sunshine brand)

here is the manufacturer's catalogue page for the frame's ends set

it will help you to determine if fork ends are a match for dropouts





---

the roughness of the bottom bracket cutouts suggests they were accomplished by someone drawing around a flexible template with a marking pen and then making the cutouts with a hand held tool such as a die grinder

this suggest that seat stay dimples may have been added by same person at same time

a framebuilder who wished to put cutouts into a bottom bracket shell would have a means of achieving the result more professionally

---

should you be able to locate a serial its placement and format may be clues which can possibly advance the inquiry

---

the present build is unlikely to be the cycle's first; it may be the second or it could be the n-th

you have some very nice fittings there such as the Phil Wood bottom bracket, Campag Record saddle pillar, Cinelli model 1A stem & DuraAce components which are paired with some ordinary calibre ones such as headset, brakes, hubs, pedals

this latest assembler may have gotten the frame bare or as a partial cycle and completed it with what they had or could find

---

the forum has framebuilder members who shall be able to write more knowledgeably regarding your machine



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Last edited by juvela; 02-18-24 at 03:43 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 02-18-24, 03:42 PM
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Fork ends do not match. Hubs are mondo f-2000 which are hard to find info on, found one track set but that’s it
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Old 02-18-24, 06:42 PM
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I doubt this helps in any way to ID the bike, but for what it's worth I believe the registration sticker is from Montgomery County Maryland. I grew up there and had a sticker like that on my bike.
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Old 02-18-24, 06:59 PM
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The fork clearly doesn't go with the frame because the front tire is pretty much kissing the downtube. The fork looks straight but there's a crack in the paint where downtube meets the lower headtube lug. Maybe it's just the backyard special paint job. If Heinz 57 made bikes back in the day I think this would of been the perfect specimen. Lol.I'd think something lower end with the lower 1060 Campy dropouts.
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Old 02-18-24, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroGut
I doubt this helps in any way to ID the bike, but for what it's worth I believe the registration sticker is from Montgomery County Maryland. I grew up there and had a sticker like that on my bike.
-----



the fifth letter of the first word certainly appears to be a G

the licensing transfer fits right in timewise

cycle licenses in the U.S. are typically issued for a term of three year

a 1975 expiry date puts the granting in 1972 which fits well with the rough birth time for the frame

---

few lower end frames are constructed with forged seat binder ears, mitred-in seat stays, Reynolds rapier pattern chainstays, BOCAMA Super Legere nr. 2 pattern lugs, BOCAMA Professional bottom bracket shells


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Last edited by juvela; 02-18-24 at 07:34 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 02-18-24, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

chainstay stop screams UK

chainstays are rapier pattern (conical and undimpled) which always means anglophone origin

h2o not original

date near to 1970

headset cobbled together from bits

dog's breakfast kitting indicates assembled from whatever was in the parts bin

dimples in seat stay tops most distinctive feature - may have been added post-manufacture

threading and tubing diameters will be BSC

original spaceing would have been 100mm front and 120mm rear

brake centres likely to be 52mm

saddle pillar size 27.2mm

cutouts in shell may be post-manufacture

check fork ends to see if they match dropouts

check steerer for possible markings

forum frame experts will have more & better information for you

member MauriceMoss may see a combination of details to suggest a perpetrator


-----
Seatstay treatment indicates insanity.

Looks a nice enough frame, but not much effort was put into thinning or refining lugs.
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Old 02-18-24, 07:39 PM
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Looks kinda home brew to me.
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Old 02-18-24, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Looks kinda home brew to me.
bought this a few weeks ago lol soooo home brew has a different meaning around here
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Old 02-18-24, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----



the fifth letter of the first word certainly appears to be a G

the licensing transfer fits right in timewise

cycle licenses in the U.S. are typically issued for a term of three year

a 1975 expiry date puts the granting in 1972 which fits well with the rough birth time for the frame

---

few lower end frames are constructed with forged seat binder ears, mitred-in seat stays, Reynolds rapier pattern chainstays, BOCAMA Super Legere nr. 2 pattern lugs, BOCAMA Professional bottom bracket shells


-----
Good lord man how do you know this stuff
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Old 02-18-24, 09:01 PM
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Dimples And Digits In The Details?

Originally Posted by juvela
-----

chainstay stop screams UK

chainstays are rapier pattern (conical and undimpled) which always means anglophone origin
...
-----
Originally Posted by deeky
That is remarkable that you can tell that… never knew that about chainstays!


Dimple?

Originally Posted by deeky
Fork ends do not match. ...
So are the front fork ends "Tange?"
Could you please remove the front wheel and take a photograph of the fork ends?


Are these numbers under the grunge on the underside of the Bottom Bracket shell?



It may aid identification of the frame if more and better pictures of frame details are provided?
(Better images can be captured on a bright sunny day, but in the shade. (Less washout and fewer shadows.))

Is the seatpost 27.2?
Is the bottom bracket English threaded?

Roughly where are you? (DC?)

Thank you for sharing your interesting acquisition, the frame of which does appear to be of quality.

Last edited by machinist42; 02-18-24 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 02-19-24, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by machinist42


Dimple?



So are the front fork ends "Tange?"
Could you please remove the front wheel and take a photograph of the fork ends?


Are these numbers under the grunge on the underside of the Bottom Bracket shell?



It may aid identification of the frame if more and better pictures of frame details are provided?
(Better images can be captured on a bright sunny day, but in the shade. (Less washout and fewer shadows.))

Is the seatpost 27.2?
Is the bottom bracket English threaded?

Roughly where are you? (DC?)

Thank you for sharing your interesting acquisition, the frame of which does appear to be of quality.
All great questions! Photos were taken once I got home and weren't quite for the purpose of frame identification, so I can (and will) take better photos once I get it disassembled.

I hope to have it apart sometime this week -- can take better photos and measurements then.

I am in central Pennsylvania. Bike was purchased from a non-bike person in East Berlin, PA. No idea where he got it from. I had assumed the reg. was for Montgomery County, PA, but could be MD as well.

Thank you for the help. I'll post those pictures soon, hopefully.
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Old 02-20-24, 12:38 PM
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Several features (the 3-slot BB shell, Campy 1060 Vertical DOs, those headlugs and the "Dutch style" seat cluster) sure are things I've generally only seen altogether on Brit-built frames, BUT could be a kit-built from something like Proteus...If I had to make a guess I'd pick one of the marques that did similar "milling" of the BB shell, but none are a slam-dunk match.
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Old 02-21-24, 12:03 PM
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I would check the threading on the seat binder bolt. The Brits used a Whitworth 9/16" during the classic period. I don't know when they switched to metric binders. Sometimes they can be M8 in other countries or M6. When I was learning to build frames in England in 1975, almost all binder bolts were not metric but rather Whitworth threading. See if it is metric or Whitworth. Besides the threads it is possible to tell by the size of the hex key too. That binder on this frame looks like it was made by Andrew Hague in the UK.
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Old 02-28-24, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
I would check the threading on the seat binder bolt. The Brits used a Whitworth 9/16" during the classic period. I don't know when they switched to metric binders. Sometimes they can be M8 in other countries or M6. When I was learning to build frames in England in 1975, almost all binder bolts were not metric but rather Whitworth threading. See if it is metric or Whitworth. Besides the threads it is possible to tell by the size of the hex key too. That binder on this frame looks like it was made by Andrew Hague in the UK.
Twas M6
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Old 02-28-24, 02:07 PM
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Here are some additional photos now that it is taken apart (man that stem was stuck in there!).

Serial number reads 8128 on BB shell. Tried checking vintage UK serial number info and didn't get much of anywhere.
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Old 02-28-24, 02:27 PM
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Also the Mondo F-2000 hubs are marked 1137-F and 1137-R (obviously front and rear). Seemingly impossible to find info on these Mondo hubs...
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Old 02-28-24, 02:38 PM
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-----


thank you for the additional imagery

upon withdrawal of fork from frame were you able to discover any marking on steerer?

now that fork out you could check interior of head tube for any sign of headplate fastener holes being filled in

the four digit serial would seem to eliminate the possibility of a kit frame as has been suggested earlier


-----

Last edited by juvela; 02-28-24 at 02:39 PM. Reason: spellin'
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Old 02-28-24, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
chainstay stop screams UK

chainstays are rapier pattern (conical and undimpled) which always means anglophone origin
Agreed, it does appear to be British.

headset cobbled together from bits
And appears to be missing the toothed lockwasher to prevent the threaded race from moving:


check fork ends to see if they match dropouts
Yes, they don't match, so it's suspicious for an aftermarket replacement, in which case, check the top and down tubes just aft of the head lugs for any signs of frame damage (paint cracks, ripples in the tubes).




Last edited by JohnDThompson; 02-28-24 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 02-28-24, 04:05 PM
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Old 02-29-24, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----


thank you for the additional imagery

upon withdrawal of fork from frame were you able to discover any marking on steerer?

now that fork out you could check interior of head tube for any sign of headplate fastener holes being filled in

the four digit serial would seem to eliminate the possibility of a kit frame as has been suggested earlier


-----
No marking on steerer and no sign of headplate fastener holes whatsoever.

I've attached a close up of the seat binder -- cut out work is not particularly precise, matching the thoughts about the BB shell cutouts.

The frame itself is remarkably light, and I have a few 80s / 90s handbuilt steel frames that it seems comparable to (going by memory since those bikes are built up so take that with a massive grain of salt...).

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Old 02-29-24, 08:54 AM
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-----

thank you for the additional information

our master frame detective member @MauriceMoss has visited the forum and posted messages since this thread was begun but has not as yet contributed to it

perhaps he missed it or may have nothing to add

had been looking forward to reading his observations...


-----
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Old 03-05-24, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

thank you for the additional information

our master frame detective member @MauriceMoss has visited the forum and posted messages since this thread was begun but has not as yet contributed to it

perhaps he missed it or may have nothing to add

had been looking forward to reading his observations...


-----
some bikes are beyond identification, i suppose

i will post another update once i strip the paint...
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