USAZorro

Sounds like a nice event. Unfortunately, attending isn't in the cards.

Ever since I started in this hobby (or "these hobbies", as I also enjoy riding), I've been a bargain-oriented opportunist. The relevance of this to the topic is that it is quite seldom that I acquire a bicycle that is "original" - let alone in good enough condition to justify being faithful to originality.

There are roughly 30 bicycles on the premises. Only about eight are in what I would call "respectable" original condition - at least in terms of the frame. I generally attempt to let these be when it comes to making irreversible changes.

Roughly 2/3 of what's here came to me in quite poor condition, or already having been repainted. Any hope of restoration to original is in the rear-view. One thing that I decline to do is attempt to bring a bike back to originality that might have any reasonable person wondering whether or not it came the way that it is (ie - original). I have a (slightly too-large for me) 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I that I had professionally painted to be quite similar to original, but the main color of white is a pearl finish. I have a 1976/77 Raleigh Team Professional that was painted Yellow/red/black, vice its original Red/black/yellow. I've also managed to slip a rear wheel with a nine-speed cassette into the rear and set it up with brifters. I have a 1972 Raleigh Competition that had abysmal paint. I stripped it, had it modified to support 650B wheels with cantilever brakes (thanks gugie), and then painted it in a very un-original color scheme. Just a few examples to make my attitude clear.

I am both sympathetic to originality, but also very open to making radical departures from it when I am satisfied that I'm not "ruining" something. For me, life is too short and too full of things to do to make myself a slave to returning every bicycle that strikes my fancy back to a state that matches the sales brochure. Perhaps I might find a bicycle that is "special enough" to me to merit that (I actually have two that I might attempt that with at some future date), but I do this as an outlet for my whims and creative impulses, and if I want to transform a 53 year-old ten-speed into a shiny, gunmetal 81-speed, I'm not going to lose sleep over the changes I made.

Andy_K 

The thing is, it is considerably cheaper to find a vintage frame and make it suitable to modern components than it is to buy a new frame of similar quality. Even if you're paying someone to braze on new bits and having the bike painted the price can be comparable to a new frame, and if you're willing to go with powder coating it's not even close.

Even a basic chromoly frame with no lugs and one-color paint is going to be around $500-800. That will get you a very pretty vintage frame that can serve as a canvas for your dream build.

I completely understand that a vintage frame built with newer components is a different category than a period correct restoration, but you won't convince me that the vintage frame loses its mojo entirely.
​​​

Andy_K 

I agree with almost every word of this. The one hair I'd split is that I still lean toward adding braze-ons if the frame doesn't have good paint. With my Stella I limited it to water bottle bosses because I think the clamp-on cable guides and such suit the aesthetic of that bike, but otherwise it's off to the bike butcher for some Gugificazione!

The main pont though is this

This is the way all bikes should be built. Visit my garage and you'll see just how strongly I believe that. I've kept a few period-correct for variety, but most are Campy 3x10 and those are the ones I ride most often.

Andy_K 

As a general approach to this question, I would suggest a thought experiment. It's 1975 and you've just bought a Raleigh Grand Sport. Do you accept the factory equipment or do you have the shop swap in a few upgrades? A lot of people did the latter. Now imagine it's 1980 and you still have the bike but the rear derailleur broke. Do you replace it with the latest tech or do you look for a 1975 derailleur? You almost certainly get the new one, right? Over the course of owning a bike, at what point does this stop? For me, as long as I still like the frame I see no reason not to upgrade it when I want to. This is authentic!

But let's stick with the thought experiment a little longer. It's 1984 and Shimano has just released the Dura Ace 7400 group. You really want it (I know, not everyone did, but it was hot stuff for a lot of people). And let's imagine you can afford it. Do you buy a new frame to put it on or do you put it on your beloved Grand Sport? If you put it on the Grand Sport, congratulations, you've just extended the upgrade path through to the time of disc brakes and electronic shifting.

I realize that there is a critical difference between owning a bike over a long period of time and buying something old because you value its place in history. And if you're buying a vintage bike because you want that time capsule, obviously you should keep it vintage. But if you're buying a vintage frame because you think it's beautiful and modern components would enhance its appeal to you, why shouldn't you do that?

For any given vintage bike model there are two important numbers: (1) the number of people who would want that frame in its original condition, and (2) the number of frames of that model which could still be restored to their original condition. Both of these numbers are decreasing over time. I really think that for the vast majority of models the second number generally exceeds the first.

iab

For clarity, and adding my .02 , Vintage Aesthetic not only includes how the bike looks, but also encompasses the user experience. The bottom line is modern components outperform their vintage counterparts. This performance difference is the what really separates vintage and resto-mods user experience. A frame brazed in 1970 ain't much different than a frame brazed in 2020.

And while I very much enjoyed Pinky, I also enjoy the user experience of using janky old derailleurs, gearing, brakes, etc. Variety is the spice of life, why not do as much as you can?

USAZorro

Very well expressed.

I'd say there's actually a #3 - maybe falling under #2, but a special case and exceedingly rare: The bicycle has historic significance and has provenance (ex - was ridden by Merckx in a significant race). This would effectively make the bicycle "museum-worthy", and would (for me at least) either require me to preserve/restore sympathetically and faithfully, or chase me off from acquiring it in the first place.

Steel Charlie

There used to be a speed shop in Bellflower and on the back of their t-shirt it said

Anyone Can Restore An Antique

It Takes a Real Man To Cut One Up

gugie 

Damn near my story, except it was a Raleigh Super Course MkII



I have a couple of bikes that fit that description, and it's fun to ride them every once in awhile. Remembering how to flip a pedal up quickly to get your foot through the toe straps, reaching down and overshifting slightly on a Campy NR rear derailleur, wearing wool shorts with a real chamois brings back good memories.

Andy_K 

I even got the year right! Obviously my post was heavily derivative of our conversations on this topic, but no one would worry about preserving a Super Course, so I gave you the upgrade you wanted.

obrentharris 

This thread needs more pictures.

As a good atheist I refuse to worship at any of these altars:

1961 Allegro, period correct right down to the Regina freewheel and the domed Stronglight crank bolts.


1957 Carlton, originally came with Simplex Juy 543 and and Juy 56 derailleurs. I've outfitted it with newer Simplex until I can find originals at a price I can afford... but I won't be too upset if I never find them.


1978 Bruce Gordon. Slightly modernized with C-Record period components (except for those pesky clipless pedals.)


Early seventies Atala with a complete hodge-podge of components. Modern tubular rims stolen from my cyclocross race bike, Race Face cranks, ancient Silca pump, etc. (Downtube shifters, but indexed Shimano 10-speed)


2005 Nagasawa with 21st century, fairly vintage-looking components.


2019 DiNucci, pretty darn modern, steel frame with the sloping top tube that some find so abhorrent.


Brent

iab

And of course, getting a modern groupset on a vintage frame from the local swap is definitely the best bang for your buck for keeping up with a $10K wonderbike.

steelbikeguy

Like Gugie, I bought my Gran Sport from the shop with just the parts I liked... which was the Weinmann brakes and the Stronglight crank. I already had some parts to put on the bike, and knew that I wanted some better stuff than the original bits. While these weren't the original parts, they were of the same vintage, so it wasn't a retro-mod yet. The bike now sported SunTour Cyclone derailleurs instead of the original Simplex.

Wait, I already said that I replaced those plastic Simplex derailleurs with some reliable SunTours.
I rode that Gran Sport for 14 years, and never did upgrade the parts.
For some reason, I've got two bikes now that are set up with Cyclone GT rear derailleurs too, so I seem to be very stuck with that old tech stuff.
The Cyclone GT is a very versatile derailleur, though, and doesn't give up much compared to a modern derailleur.

The Gran Sport:


my touring/commuting bike:


and my Hetchins, which has been "upgraded" ?? from Campy SR stuff to wider range gearing with a SunXCD clone of the T.A. Cyclotourist crank and Cyclone GT rear derailleur. It still has the Campy SR front derailleur, though. It was a good way to mod the bike to handle the hills. I do miss the closer gears of the old 13-24 six speed freewheel, though... but I have other vintage bikes set up that way that get used for fast riding.


For my vintage bikes that are in good or excellent shape and came with their original bits, I try to maintain their condition as well as possible. As they say, the bikes are only original once, I'm happy to leave them that way.

Steve in Peoria

genejockey 

I had a very typical American experience with cycling as a kid growing up - my parents bought me a bike for my 7th birthday, which was too big for a year or so, then the right size, then too small. During the "Stingray" craze, my Dad got a banana seat and riser bars. In my early teens, I got a typical 40 lb, generic "10 speed" which I rode all over everywhere.

Then I got a drivers license. My ass barely ever touched a bike saddle after that, for two decades.

I started riding again at 38, initially with a hybrid, then I got a road bike. I equipped it with Ergo levers and clipless pedals as soon as I could, so I don't have any of those good memories you describe. Funny thing, though - I LOVE riding my C&V bikes. I love how they look, I love reaching down and pushing the lever just the right amount to get silently into the next gear, I love the feel of riding a racing bike from the 80s (my favoraite C&V era) - even though I personally never experienced riding a racing bike IN the 80s.

There may be something strange about nostalgia for something one never experienced. But, you know, I have the money, the space, and the time, so who cares?

AdventureManCO 

If I am being honest, I'm completely unsympathetic to originality, while also freely admitting that the classic bicycles in their original configurations tend to be aesthetically ideal, especially compared to modern bikes. It's not even close. It's been fun paying homage to that, but I've seen plenty of posts here, independent of me, that seem to acknowledge in so many words:

- the brakes are mostly terrible
- the riding comfort is awful
- many ideas, like that paper thin benotto tape, made no sense
- the gearing is ridiculous
- the shifting is mediocre at best
- the revered bits, like Campy stuff, had tons of issues, like cranks cracking at the spider, the binder bolts disintegrating, and the NR posts being a gigantic pain to adjust, never mind the titanium BB

That all being said, vintage is fun, and it isn't perfect. Perhaps they are a good reflection of us as well, warts and all. There are memories attached to it, and posterity will always come with a harsh eye in judgement. Besides, it's not like the modern carbon wonder bikes fixed all that with no tradeoffs whatsoever. 50 years from now we'll see what they are say about the bikes of today.

I still like old bikes, but I'm happy to make concessions where 'classic for classic sake' makes no sense.

USAZorro

Was thinking much more of the frames than components, but (for example), when I got a 30-year-old Fuji Finest about 20 years ago it was all original. (with an extra set of clincher wheels). The only thing about it that I had anything close to a complaint about were the brakes - but that was before I became familiar with Tektros. It still has the originals, but I just avoid attempting hairy descents at speed. I think I may have three or four others that don't have more modern components on them, but if I intend to ride a bike a lot, it has upgrades.

Andy_K 

You're being completely unfair. The riding comfort is great.

botty kayer

I'd prefer to see an C&V frame modded if it means the bike gets used by its owner, rather than see a full period correct bike gathering dust unused in a garage.

I love the look of 80s and 90s steel frames and I own a dozen or so of them. I much prefer the look of a quill stem to an ahesdset one, and I want my bikes to still look old/retro in essence, so if you squinted or looked with a non C&V critical eye you could be fooled into thinking it was vintage.

Despite this not 1 of my bikes would qualify for a L'eroica event. I ride a lot and ride all my bikes, but I live in a city of nearly 10m people who seem to be mostly on or looking at their phones with scant regard for me or my safety, so those old single pivot brakes and clips and straps just don’t cut it. And while I can trackstand for minutes at a time and never once had a clipped in fall, the one bike I had with clips and straps I never felt fully safe in the city, so those pedals were replaced with clipless pedals which I now have across all my road bike fleet.

Similarly for city riding down tube shifters equals time away from brakes which increases liklihood of accidents, so downtube shifting has gone the same way as clips and straps, and I now have only 1 bike with downtube shifters. This still would not qualify for L'eroica as it has clipless pedals and brake cables taped under the bar tape-i much prefer the clean look of this so would never bother retaping with washing line cables just because an event thinks I have to. Also I know I'd lose those tiny Campag brake inserts so I'd be stuck with washing lines for life

And I'm a fan of wider rims and tyres, with all my C&V bikes now running 28c tyres, roads here in London are a absolute mess and I wouldn't go back to 23c tyres for all the tea in India.

I've just put some new summer 28c gumwalls on 2 of my restomods, and 93 Merckx MX Leader, running 20 speed Campag and a 89 Team ADR Bottecchia also running 20 speed Campag but with the original Mavic Starfish crank modded with 10 speed rings.


I"ve not killed any puppies or butchered the classic aesthetic, so if me or anyone at a later date wanted to return these to full period correct spec they could.with no issue. I wont be doing that, as to do so would mean I would use them less.

Andy_K 

This is kind of how I approach it too. I'm not necessarily trying to make it look vintage, but I'm trying to respect the spirit of the bike. I want something that looks old and new at the same time, but above all I just want it to look "right" in some abstract sense. Whether or not I accomplish that is debatable, but I have found a style I like.

I mentioned before that I kept most of the shiny clamp-on bits on my Stella. It felt like that's what the bike was telling me it wanted.



With my Pinarello, the original paint was nearly perfect, and it had all the braze-ons I would have wanted. So I just built in with my usual components and it came out fitting my aesthetic.



Taking a step deeper into the realm of blasphemy, I had a 1974 California Masi that I wasn't riding much because I didn't enjoy the 1974 Campy components. Someone before me had added bottle bosses and a few other bits, so I did my thing to it.



Then there's my Raleigh Professional. The original paint is too nice to even add bottle bosses, but guess what....



The careful viewer may see a pattern here.

You'd have to glance really quickly to mistake any of these for a proper vintage build, but I really don't think that a casual observer would feel that anything was amiss with them either. Plus, most of these components are over 20 years old now, so they're kind of vintage, right?

botty kayer

All very nice, i wouldn't consider the Masi blasphemy at all, looks great. I think destroying good condition original paint is blasphemy. Others may consider it an improvement but I would consider it a serious crime for example to put any extra bosses and destroy the original paint on my Matio Martini painted Somec.


As this bike is so typical of Italian cycling excess I've kept all the panto'd parts including the Delta brakes, but again have insisted on sti shifters and 28c tyres that just about fit and I've got improved Kool Stop brake pads to improve performance.

Likewise the green on my 753 Merckx is so dreamy it melts everyones heart it seems, so i couldnt add any brazing to this and ruin the green. I've been told this is a rare beast too in that there's not many in this green, but also because it's a reynolds 753 with a fully chromed rear end, which is apparently not something Reynolds advised and must have been a special order. Mr Merckx seemingly had no issue with doing it, and 37 years after it was made its still in great condition.

Those 2 are probably my most period correct bikes, but like you I've had my way with them and made them a bit more 21st century. While the green Merckx has an old screw on freewheel, i've got a.modern one with a 29 tooth and with wider tyres its easier going than the olden days. And the wheels, while the hubs were original NOS Croc d'aune, I had them built up with modern wider Pacenti Brevet rims. Also as this is Reynolds 753 and apparently not to be respaced it rules out the more.modern groupsets anyway, so I'm happy to keep the down tube shifters and 7 speed on this.

iab

I think this is one of the most common reasons I have seen on this forum. And I would accept it if it were being written by someone that owned one or two bikes. But that is not typical of your C&V forum member.

So then my question is, why do you want all of your ("your" meaning C&V members, not singling you out botty kayer) to be the same? I have taken 50mph descents on the absolutely worst brakes imaginable with cork pads on wood rims. I went back up those same hills with 15% sections running 42-18/21/24. I have done the same route on my modern, steel, wonder bike with 22 gears and as light as a fart. The riding styles for each bike is entirely different, and that is what I enjoy. Both are different types of challenges. I don't see the point of having the only difference between bikes is that one is red, the other is blue. Someone help me out.

USAZorro

Point taken. To an extent I am guilty of this.

Probably not much difference in riding between a ten-speed 1972 Raleigh Competition and a ten-speed 197x Grand Sports - both with bar end shifters. Similarly, not much functional difference between a 1973/4 RRA and a 1977 Argos - both 10-speeds with downtube shifters. Part of this in my case is attributable to my goal as a collector to have one of each Raleigh model name from the 1970s (those made with 531 or 753 tubing). This said, I don't feel stuck in a rut when it comes to riding. I can take out a racy bike with brifters and great brakes, brifters with pretty good brakes, bar end shifters, downtube shifters, single-speed, fixed gear, all terrain with huge tires, road/gravel, path racer, CX, upright 3-speed, upright 81 speed, upright 10-speed. True, I have plenty that don't get ridden often and a few that I haven't taken out in a couple years, but it suits me. While I do have favorites, I also have choices for a variety of moods and purposes. There's satisfaction in transformation that can be enjoyed during, and after the process. I like having something that I've put my mark on (so to speak), and in having it present to see and use and enjoy. Ultimately, they'll all get passed onward, but for now... It's my happy medium between collecting shoes and collecting cars.

Obviously, all this could/will change (instantly, or slowly), but for now, finding what enjoyment that I can in the nostalgia, the present, and the anticipation of adventures that still entice me - which all remain attached to these hobbies.

botty kayer

Speaking only for me its not that I want all bikes to be the same at all, far from it, the more and varied types of bike the better. I too have a carbon bike and ti bikes and mtb, but where i live a penny farthing i would consider dangerous to ride locally, and if i had cork rims and wooden wheels yesterday I'm sure I"d have run straight into that Jack Russell chasing the ball that was thrown right across my path.

As I'm now in my 50s and don't bounce like I did when I was younger my risk/reward threshold has changed over the years. Also I'm self employed and if i break myself cycling I'm not earning anything, so there's a few things I'd just rather not make concessions for, no matter how exhilarating.

I'm not for a second saying my way is the best way, its just personal preference. I like all types of bike and would be up for trying riding any contraption, but doesn't mean I want to own them. And red and blue bikes can ride quite differently.

Steel Charlie

My 1985 Serotta weight weenie Dura Ace 7700 2x9

RustyJames 

100% agreement. The user experience….

I have an original Ford Model T in my garage. If I swap out the original flathead 4 with a V8, toss the wood wheels, add independent front suspension with disc brakes, change the differential and other mods to make it drive “better” I couldn’t say I have a Model T. I have something else. The user experience between the before and after would be completely different.

I’ll go grab my fire resistant clothes while the flamethrowers get loaded.

iab

One other thing, I think certain frames are sacrosanct. Some things should never be restomods. In terms of "wrenching", I am attracted to those. I like the time and patience to find the right bits and bobs. If I'm dropping a modern drivetrain on a frame, I'll take it to the LBS so hopefully they stay in business. It's in their wheelhouse and they are a great local resource, I want them to stick around. Expecting them to know how to work on my janky old crap is unrealistic and entirely unfair.

As for what I consider sacrosanct. It is definitely low volume frames. Can be team bikes, but I have none of those. Real old bikes can fall into the category, not many around. And frames that may have a unique feature. That should be highlighted, not covered.