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Original vs Restomod - Thoughts and Classic Bicycles Auburn registration seminar

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Original vs Restomod - Thoughts and Classic Bicycles Auburn registration seminar

Old 05-21-24, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by merziac
@ascherer,

Great call, agree on the spectrum, sliding scale, many factors having varying degrees of relevance.
Nor is this a new conversation! Back in '72 I bought (and still possess) The Clear Creek Bike Book which includes some gems along these lines, I particularly like the one about Milan:

Referring to a frame builder, Allins of Croyden:




And of another shop, which would configure a bike down to the saddle tension:


I try to find the path for a given bike or build. Some celebrate the iconic object in its time, like my Paramount or PX10. Others evolve following the sentiment above - I want certain functionality, bits, and aesthetics. It's always personal for me. I'm pleased when someone admires one of my bikes but I do it for my own enjoyment. YMMV, and that's cool.
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Old 05-21-24, 08:27 AM
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Some of these builds are incredibly reminiscent of Trigger's broom
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Old 05-21-24, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Steel Charlie
Some of these builds are incredibly reminiscent of Trigger's broom


All in the eye of the beholder.
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Old 05-21-24, 03:10 PM
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My 1970 Professional Mk I is my best example of using selected new and old components to achieve a blend of function and style. It came to me as a frame and fork and was better suited for the rando-ish build that was evolving on my International. It's mostly settled now, but even from when this picture was taken last fall there's been a few changes. 2x10, now with Ultegra derailleurs instead of the Microshift pictured. Rear hub is a beautiful high-flange Sun XCD 130mm cassette hub, the front is a Sanyo Dynamo powering BM lighting. NOS silver Mavic Module 3 rims with Jack Brown 33 tires. Brakes are Mafac Competition (older style), cranks are Stronglight 49 arms and Velo Orange rings. Let's see...Nitto Crystal Fellow post, B72 Flyer, ENE stem and Nitto Noodles. Campy Record headset. Shimano A520 pedals, Nitto rack and VO fenders. Brooks tool bag, Acorn front bag. To me it all goes together, looks vintage, and performs new. It eats up any kind of road I throw at it short of category 3 gravel.

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Old 05-21-24, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
Ok, I have to grant you this point too. The bike I rode yesterday was my 1969 Raleigh Competition. I have swapped out almost every component on this bike even though it came to me with all of its original components except the saddle. The one component I kept was the Simplex shifters. There's something about them I like.

I have ridden this bike at Eroica California and even in its current configuration (with a pedal swap) it conforms to the letter of the Eroica rules, if not the spirit. When I first built it for riding, I used center pull brakes and vintage brake levers.



I liked everything about it except for the brake levers. Trying to use them with a modern compact bar was a bit silly, but even with a proper vintage bar the ergonomics just don't work. So I swapped in Ergo-clone brake levers and dual pivot brakes. Now I have a comfortable bike that makes your point.
​​
Well, it is a spectrum for sure. I think it you look at the bell curve of vintage bike setups compared to modern bike setups, you'd see a little more consideration for ergos amongst the modern bikes, whereas a lot of those classic bikes that we all think of and know and love are more of those racing bikes that comfort wasn't necessarily a high priority. But then again, take French bikes - I'm sure plenty of ancient ones eat up centuries far better than many others, modern bikes included. Plenty of examples to both prove, and disprove my point! So you are not wrong. I'm just stirring the pot

For me, the biggest change tends to be that bar/lever setup - the removable faceplate stems allow for more comfy bars, and the levers are placed up higher on the bars while still being relatively flat. But the old stuff looks worlds better.

I set up the Midget (Miyata 1000) for my son w/ a modern ergo bar and ergonomic levers and its a joy to ride (for him!).

I'm very curious about how to plan to setup that Aerowind
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Old 05-21-24, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RustyJames
IMO - once you start hanging modern components on a vintage frame, it’s no longer vintage.
Define vintage! Define modern! Campy ergo is thirty two years old, and even the 10 sprocket variety is twenty-four years old by now. I consider my 2000 and 2002 Peter Mooneys to be vintage.
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Old 05-21-24, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by iab
And of course, getting a modern groupset on a vintage frame from the local swap is definitely the best bang for your buck for keeping up with a $10K wonderbike.
Sadly the only noteworthy thing I saw at my local swap was an unused Giro aero helmet, and I really don't think I'm riding anymore TTs.
Last summer there was an early 80s Trek 720 in my size for about $100, but I missed out.
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Old 05-21-24, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
For me, life is too short and too full of things to do to make myself a slave to returning every bicycle that strikes my fancy back to a state that matches the sales brochure.
Alsop, who's to say there weren't a bunch of departures as things broke or wore out.
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Old 05-22-24, 01:09 AM
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I ride vintage as friction (only exception is 1 restomod)
I ride Campy 10 Ergo, both double and triple on steel/Ti/CF frames.
I ride a roadie ebike.
1959 the oldest, 2020 the newest.

My focus in vintage has been mostly 70's/80's Uk & Euro. Newer framesets from custom American builders.

Build your framesets any way that gets you on the road. It's just a bike and probably should be ridden regularly, historical bikes excepted.

Some pics tomorrow of the more worthy vintage ones, when I get home, ... but here's the oldest i have owned, '59 Rickert. It got returned to original owner - Ted Ernst & family. That made me happy.

Below a sample but lacking the early 70s Bottecchia Giro d Italia and Zeus Pro, Pinarello . The restomod is Batavus. A Merckx Pro from Belgium was damaged in transit. And numerous others……


‘87 Bianchi Vittoria. FormulaOne tubing, only offered a couple of years - rides like SL/SLX mix. Anyone know fo' sure?

AustroDaimler Olympian 1980 (full 531), PX10 1971 in outstanding cosmetic condition.

Harding (Holdsworth) Special, 1980

DeRosa, 1986

Romic, forget the year but kinda early in Ray G's company..

Merckx, 1985 -- a near duplicate of the one damaged in transit from Belgium.

AD Vent Noir,1982. (I think I like the cockpit on the Olympian better, so the VN moved on to another BF member)


Falcon, 1989. Based on my experience the brand is underrated. 531c, quick handling but stable, relatively lightweight (without the all day bags).

Mondia Super, beautiful paintwork.

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Old 05-22-24, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by merziac
This really exemplifies the dilemma for me, such a cool old frame, so nice, needs/has to be ridden but how to do that so the experience is commensurate with the vibe and station of such a gem.

Retromod is the only answer it seems, now it can be ridden and truly enjoyed for what it is, a fantastic frame with a much better lease on life.
I concur; and a lot has to do with how you plan on using/ riding the bike in question:
My 1974 Bridgestone is ostensibly a sport -tourer, 2x6 SunTour V-GT with down tube shifters ; it can go down the road all day long, but it prefers a casual, yet deliberate pace. I put a porteur rack on it and use it primarily for "brewpub" rides. I have enough parts to put 7-sp brifters on it, but this is the kind of bike that calls for Gevenalles on moustache bars.

My 89 Criterium Cannondale on the other hand, enjoys being ridden with the kind of intensity that gets spoiled by down tube shifters, even indexed, so it got 10-sp 105/Microsoft and while Mavic CXP-22s aren't totally state-of-the-art, they're way snappier to ride then the worn-out Weinmanns it came with. It's so rewarding to ride as hard and fast as you can; but it's where I really experienced a bike that may be more capable than the rider.
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Old 05-22-24, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MooneyBloke
Define vintage! Define modern! Campy ergo is thirty two years old, and even the 10 sprocket variety is twenty-four years old by now. I consider my 2000 and 2002 Peter Mooneys to be vintage.
See my post, #49.

If there is a large gap from the year of the frame to the year of the components on it, it is no longer vintage. I could slap electronic shifting on my 1960 Legnano and it would be clever but I wouldn’t say I have a vintage bike. Inversely, I buy a brand new carbon frameset and I put 1st gen Record components on it (I know, only possible in the abstract), I don’t have a vintage/classic/whatever bike.

Just my opinion….
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Old 05-22-24, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MooneyBloke
Define vintage! Define modern! Campy ergo is thirty two years old, and even the 10 sprocket variety is twenty-four years old by now. I consider my 2000 and 2002 Peter Mooneys to be vintage.
Vintage - often defined as 1987 and before. But in the age of alternative facts - it can be your opinion as fact.
Carbon fiber forks are 25years old = vintage?
I have '99 Pinarello, '00 Calfee, '03 Macalu, '04 Tallerico - each Ergo10 = not vintage, IMHO.

'99 Pinarello = lugged steel, not vintage

'00 Calfee = CF, not vintage.
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Old 05-22-24, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Wildwood
Vintage - often defined as 1987 and before..
By whom? In fashion, the boundary is twenty years. I think antique (100+yr) is the only formal definition here. I think this is more a matter of gatekeeping. (I.e. your bike's not vintage; get out of our clubhouse!) I see way too much of this garbage in the world these days.
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Old 05-22-24, 11:40 AM
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Here's my only restomod - 1978 (I think) Batavus Competition, Ergo9 triple.


The harder question to answer is which vintage bikes qualify as Classic.
I think this Kalkhoff is classic. All the components just look correct.

Foil decals = classic.

zip ties are not classic, but (luckily) it got fixed.
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Old 05-22-24, 11:58 AM
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The only thing I ever paid attention to was Collecting vs. Riding.

Its not that you can't ride a bike that is a part of a collection but from my perspective, collecting was about accurate preservation and riding was focused on realistic use.

Personally, I am too disorganized and impatient to be a collector, so I have always looked at C&V through the "realistic use" perspective.

I try to keep things looking good relative to the bike and its era (highly subjective) when I make changes.

From my vantage point functionality comes first relative to how and where I plan to ride the bike.

That puts me in a different camp than those that collect to preserve.
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Old 05-22-24, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MooneyBloke
By whom? In fashion, the boundary is twenty years.
Classic Rendezvous, L'Eroica, others. Sorta the most respected folks in the old bike business.

This is not a slander on 'old' bikes, I love my Ergo bikes - just not vintage by cycling industry standards, IMHO.

What everyone calls their bikes is fine by me, except Lucille - BB King has an exclusive on Lucille.
what you been wrenching?



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Old 05-22-24, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Wildwood
Classic Rendezvous, L'Eroica, others. Sorta the most respected folks in the old bike business.
As I said: gatekeeping. Get out of our clubhouse! Tiresome to me. I really don't care about Dale or l'Eroica snobishness.

This is a sort of thing I don't respect in the least.

I think that there are two types of bikes, riders and collector items. The second should be restricted to those that participated in significant events. I'd even put Lon Haldeman's Specialized RAAM Allez in that category. Let's not turn bicycles in the general into fetish items.

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Old 05-22-24, 12:39 PM
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I respect commonly defined industry usage of terms - gives strength to meaning......and no one is denying anyone else their pleasure of riding an aging bicycle. With millions of nice 'friction shifters' being ridden, it is hardly a club much less exclusive.

Just don't call your Moonies Lucille.
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Old 05-22-24, 12:56 PM
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I'm not going to call any of my bikes Lucille. I call one of the Moonies #729 and the other #763. I don't think the cycling industry as a whole really has much of an opinion. CR and L.Eroica are a very small segment. Right now I suspect most folk in the industry are worried about where the chips are going to fall with a non-negligible number of players calling it quits..

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Old 05-22-24, 01:34 PM
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@MooneyBloke - Totally agree.
The cycling industry as a business is always forward looking - could care less about hair-splitting terms for the past. The used bike market similarly cares nothing about old distinctions. Without disc brakes and integrated levers every bike is: 'old, vintage, classic, rare'. Those of us delving deeply into bicycles for decades and having an appreciation of the many qualities of a fine steel frame are hardly a blip on anyone's radar. Eccentrics.

Heck, given current trends = every bike without a motor will soon be 'old, vintage, classic'.


Are original components or paint/decals a requirement for a classic bike? - as opposed to 'looking classic'? IDK! ......for another thread....

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Old 05-22-24, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AdventureManCO
I'm very curious about how to plan to setup that Aerowind
I have literally seen an AeroWind in a museum (Bicycle Heaven in Pittsburgh), so I know I'm on dangerous ground here, but I'm going to modernize it, critics be damned.

A quill stem adapter will be used to mate that 21.1 steerer to a threadless stem. Then I've got some nice Easton EA50 handlebars with a 31.8 clamp diameter. I used this stem/bar combination with a different adapter on my Mercian, and I was shocked to find that I actually could feel the difference in stiffness compared to a traditional quill stem. It's too ugly for the Mercian, but it will do just fine on the AeroWind. The thicker steerer on the Huffy should make it even stiffer.

I've got a set of Shimano (5603) 105 brifters ready to go that will complete the ergonomic experience.
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Old 05-22-24, 02:04 PM
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My rule for vintage is: if it came out after I graduated high school, it can't be vintage. It's gotta be modern because that just feels like a few years back. What's that you say? That was 27 years ago? Shut your mouth. Similarly, something that came out when I was 10 or before, that can be vintage. Since I turned 10 in 1989, I'll happily call anything pre-1990 vintage.

Everyone's numbers are a little different. When I first heard songs I thought of as so cool and modern when I was in high school being called classic rock, that hurt a little bit, but I like the "anything newer than when I was in high school can't be old" as a rule, even though it makes the age vary for everyone.
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Old 05-22-24, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MooneyBloke
By whom? In fashion, the boundary is twenty years. I think antique (100+yr) is the only formal definition here. I think this is more a matter of gatekeeping. (I.e. your bike's not vintage; get out of our clubhouse!) I see way too much of this garbage in the world these days.
I find 1983 to be a less arbitrary boundary than most -- in a romantic sense because it's the year that Tulio died, but also in a functional sense because it's the year before Dura Ace 7400 launched indexed shifting into the mainstream.

Beyond that it's about styles. Categories almost never have hard boundaries, but there's a definite aesthetic that was shared to one degree or another by road bikes between the mid 1960's and the early 1980's that isn't held by most bikes made after that and isn't fully formed in most bikes made before that.

It can be gate keeping, but it can also be a much less hostile "this is what I am interested in" kind of definition. Categories are useful. People on this forum who are into pre-war cruisers probably find it ridiculous when we argue about whether a 1990 road bike is vintage, but they are also probably very aware that their own interests, while most definitely vintage, don't align with the majority of the content on this forum.

When I say Metallica isn't classic rock, it's usually because I find it odd when my local classic rock plays them. I like Metallica a lot, but I don't think they're classic rock. So it goes.
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Old 05-22-24, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
When I say Metallica isn't classic rock, it's usually because I find it odd when my local classic rock plays them. I like Metallica a lot, but I don't think they're classic rock. So it goes.
I'd call anything pre-Black album classic rock (because that was my first album of theirs), and everything else rock, while some of my high school/college classmates would say that anything post-Black album wasn't rock (or at least rock worth listening too - I'd argue some exceptions to that), but that's a discussion for Foo, not C&V.
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Old 05-22-24, 02:49 PM
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Good thread.
Sorry to whine and hate to call-in some individuals but I would appreciate some pics from our guy in Sweden (and the lovely upstairs bike room), @non-fixie and his unique group of riders, @Kilroy1988 and his lovely bikes that seem 'gentile'. @SurferRosa builds them nicely. And does @Drillium Dude ever lurk? How is that nude steel Colnago?

and so many others -
(besides - I'm stuck indoors today. Bring on the Bike Porn)
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