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Original vs Restomod - Thoughts and Classic Bicycles Auburn registration seminar

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Original vs Restomod - Thoughts and Classic Bicycles Auburn registration seminar

Old 05-22-24, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Wildwood
Good thread.
Sorry to whine and hate to call-in some individuals but I would appreciate some pics from our guy in Sweden (and the lovely upstairs bike room), @non-fixie and his unique group of riders, @Kilroy1988 and his lovely bikes that seem 'gentile'. @SurferRosa builds them nicely. And does @Drillium Dude ever lurk? How is that nude steel Colnago?

and so many others -
(besides - I'm stuck indoors today. Bring on the Bike Porn)
DD may still lurk but is in self imposed complete exile and recently reported to be doing just fine as one would expect.
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Old 05-22-24, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MooneyBloke
The second should be restricted to those that participated in significant events.
Why?

Sunday is vintage day for me. Whether it is a rider or a collector item as you have defined it. Why exactly must anyone restrict how, when, where, what they want to ride? Why so black and white? The people who were originally racing these so called collectors items rode them everywhere in all conditions would drop you everyday all day on your so called rider. And I may be old, fat and slow on these bikes today, but don't put me into some corner you made up in your mind.

Originally Posted by MooneyBloke
Let's not turn bicycles in the general into fetish items.
I won't be a snob if you won't either.
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Old 05-22-24, 04:33 PM
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Is one a 'collector' or a 'rider'?
The answer may lie in, Should this bike be ridden hard for 2 days on gravel?
Maybe instead of vintage classic it would prefer to be remembered as vintage racing heroica?
Who can tell?


edit: yeah, yeah, I know. I just want to be... more like MattP or iab,.....'cept recently.
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Old 05-22-24, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau
My rule for vintage is: if it came out after I graduated high school, it can't be vintage. It's gotta be modern because that just feels like a few years back. What's that you say? That was 27 years ago? Shut your mouth. Similarly, something that came out when I was 10 or before, that can be vintage. Since I turned 10 in 1989, I'll happily call anything pre-1990 vintage.
About 10 years ago, I was telling someone about having seen Quarterflash at the Waterfront Blues Festival "not that long ago." When I sat down and figured out when it was I saw them I realized it was 1995. So there you have it. Anything that has happened since 1995 is recent.

I turned 10 in 1979. That probably explains our differing opinions about Metallica being classic rock.
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Old 05-22-24, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
About 10 years ago, I was telling someone about having seen Quarterflash at the Waterfront Blues Festival "not that long ago." When I sat down and figured out when it was I saw them I realized it was 1995. So there you have it. Anything that has happened since 1995 is recent.

I turned 10 in 1979. That probably explains our differing opinions about Metallica being classic rock.
Geez. I was in the record business from 1971-1978. We definitely have some differences about what constitutes classic rock.
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Old 05-22-24, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
Geez. I was in the record business from 1971-1978. We definitely have some differences about what constitutes classic rock.
Maybe. Maybe not. I'm going to explore this because I think it's relevant to the topic of this thread.

Most of the music I consider classic rock was made between 1967 or so and 1979. So when you started in the record business in 1971 I would assume this wasn't "classic rock" it was just rock. But by 1984 or so classic rock was an established category, centered around bands like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and the Rolling Stones who were putting out their best records while you were in the business. Some stuff that was made after 1984 is recognizable as classic rock because it is in the style of the earlier music, but having experienced early Metallica as their albums were coming out it was very clear that they were not in that category, and I can't understand how they magically aged into it.

Similarly, there are bikes being made today that fit the "classic" style as I understand it (such as those recognized as KoF on CR) but those that are not made in this style will never be such, no matter how old they get.

Then there are the resto-mods. These are kind of like covers of classic rock songs. Whether these covers are themselves classic rock depends on how they are done. For instance, to me, the Lemonheads' cover of Mrs. Robinson sounds like classic rock, whereas Coroner's cover of I Want You (She's So Heavy) does not, despite being surprisingly close to the original.
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Old 05-22-24, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K

Then there are the resto-mods. These are kind of like covers of classic rock songs. Whether these covers are themselves classic rock depends on how they are done. For instance, to me, the Lemonheads' cover of Mrs. Robinson sounds like classic rock, whereas Coroner's cover of I Want You (She's So Heavy) does not, despite being surprisingly close to the original.
Let's not get into Pearl Jam's (not Classic Rock despite it getting played on Classic Rock stations) cover of "Last Kiss". Not sure what the bike equivalent of that would be, but it was an abomination. Or that recent cover of "Sound of Silence" by whoever that was (also not to my taste, but then I grew up listening to the hisses and pops of that record played over and over).
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Old 05-22-24, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau
Or that recent cover of "Sound of Silence" by whoever that was (also not to my taste, but then I grew up listening to the hisses and pops of that record played over and over).
I think that was disturbed who did that cover. A nu-metal band at it's heart.



For the original topic.... I prefer restomods since they are feasible. Modern tires, non ancient seats, and new griptape just make sense. After that it's a choice of how you want to ride and change the bike to fit it. I didn't live through the era most "vintage/classic" bikes were new so I have no fondness to OEM spec. I do enjoy running friction dt shifters, freewheels, and aero or non aero levers.
A classic road bike to me is pre brifters.
A vintage road bike is pre aero levers/hoods
Old as dirt is pre square taper
antique would be lever shifting derailleurs.
And the new gios "vintage blue" bike is classically inspired, even without lugs.

Of course different people can move these eras and names around, but they make enough sense to me, and that's enough.
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Old 05-22-24, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau
Let's not get into Pearl Jam's (not Classic Rock despite it getting played on Classic Rock stations) cover of "Last Kiss".
I actually really like that one, but I was never familiar with the original. Probably also a good analogy for this thread.
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Old 05-23-24, 12:15 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood
I would appreciate some pics... @SurferRosa builds them nicely...
Thank you, C Dogge.

My pre-1992 franken-Campy builds try to keep it in the period-correct ball park and always add a few Japanese touches.


'82 Miyata 912 with '82 Tange chromoly fork. Components are from Chorus, Victory, Omas, Modolo, Miche, Shimano 600, Sun, Cinelli and Brooks.
​​​​​​

'72 Torpado with lots of Nuovo Record, a first gen DA brakeset, Sugino crankset, Mavic rims, 3ttt stem and bars. The 25mm Paselas aren't real sexy, but I enjoy and trust them.

'80 Bertoni with mostly Super Record, Record, and Chorus. Brake calipers are DA 7400.
​​​​​

'88 Falcon with Triomphe bb, crankset and calipers, Chorus brake levers, 1990 Record rd, Suntour shifters, new Sun rims with 6207 hubs and a new $14 Tange headset that doesn't call attention to itself.
​​​​​

'91 Bottecchia with Triomphe, Athena, Victory, Chorus ... and just a pinch of the original 6400 group's headset, seatpost and fd. New Sun rims (again). All these bikes use either 6- or 7-speed "chrome" Sunrace freewheels, which are ramped, under $30, reliable and don't have any writing on them.
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Old 05-23-24, 03:00 AM
  #111  
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For me to be happy on a bike it needs to fit me, work well and look good. Except for the ones I take to Eroica-type events originality, or even period correctness, is not a consideration. I'll happily combine parts that were designed a century ago with modern-ish stuff from the 21st century, as long as they work and look well together.

If I collect anything, it's framesets in my size and parts that I like. One day I'll build The Perfect Bike with them.

Until then a frame is often the starting point of a project, such as with this Rubust frameset I found on eBay a couple of years ago. The Lyotard 23 Marcel Berthet pedal design dates from the 1920's, the Campagnolo brifters are from the early 2000's and the rest is from various decades in between:



Sometimes a single part may lead to a new build. I've always liked the elegant looks and fine details of the T.A. Professionnel 3 attachés cranks, but felt they just wouldn't look right on any of my existing bikes. So I ended up building a new one:

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Old 05-23-24, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie
For me to be happy on a bike it needs to fit me, work well and look good. Except for the ones I take to Eroica-type events originality, or even period correctness, is not a consideration. I'll happily combine parts that were designed a century ago with modern-ish stuff from the 21st century, as long as they work and look well together.

...Sometimes a single part may lead to a new build. I've always liked the elegant looks and fine details of the T.A. Professionnel 3 attachés cranks, but felt they just wouldn't look right on any of my existing bikes. So I ended up building a new one:

Somehow, you have an older French crankset, Shimano RD and Campy brifter working together in harmony.

That’s impressive. How’d you get the Shimano and Campy to work well together?
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Old 05-23-24, 04:03 AM
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Most of my bikes are low to mid range rider quality. Highest end being an '84 TSD prepped Guerciotti SLX Super Record Special. It's currently in pieces in boxes. My nicest complete bike is an absolutely mint '84 Focus (Araya) RS-500. Great bike but zero value even in a strong C & V market. Some of my bikes I intended to keep all original but with the plummeting value of bikes like mine all bets are off. I'll modify to suit, can barely give them away anyway might as well have some fun with them. I'm also having serious doubts about even finishing many of them now.

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Old 05-23-24, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jdawginsc
Somehow, you have an older French crankset, Shimano RD and Campy brifter working together in harmony.

That’s impressive. How’d you get the Shimano and Campy to work well together?
Thanks. The "Yoshi-Tulio" setup is one of the many options from Chris Juden's wonderful web page. He did all the legwork.
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Old 05-23-24, 05:25 AM
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I like sawzalls and die grinders.

Originally a 1" headtube...



...now 1-1/8":



Then again, I tend to use them on frames generally not worth anyone's time (as shown).

Contrarywise, the braze-ons a previous owner installed on this Leo-Chlorodont does not sit well with me:



Provided it's not a Bottecchia and it is an actual Leo-Chlorodont (we'll probably never know for sure, but it matches up well enough), then it is too unusual a bike to have been stripped of its original identity and restomodded. While the Cyclart repaint is also excellent, the restoration work below it is not of great quality.

I've clearly continued the restomod approach with the build (which, I must stress, is in progress - hence the rear fender as it is now) but if it was original, I never would have done this to it.

Context is everything.

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Old 05-23-24, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
Maybe. Maybe not. I'm going to explore this because I think it's relevant to the topic of this thread.

Most of the music I consider classic rock was made between 1967 or so and 1979. So when you started in the record business in 1971 I would assume this wasn't "classic rock" it was just rock. But by 1984 or so classic rock was an established category, centered around bands like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and the Rolling Stones who were putting out their best records while you were in the business. Some stuff that was made after 1984 is recognizable as classic rock because it is in the style of the earlier music, but having experienced early Metallica as their albums were coming out it was very clear that they were not in that category, and I can't understand how they magically aged into it.

Similarly, there are bikes being made today that fit the "classic" style as I understand it (such as those recognized as KoF on CR) but those that are not made in this style will never be such, no matter how old they get.

Then there are the resto-mods. These are kind of like covers of classic rock songs. Whether these covers are themselves classic rock depends on how they are done. For instance, to me, the Lemonheads' cover of Mrs. Robinson sounds like classic rock, whereas Coroner's cover of I Want You (She's So Heavy) does not, despite being surprisingly close to the original.
Every time I think you're just another pretty face, you deliver a thoughtful, introspective post like this. Chapeau, sir!
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Old 05-23-24, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
Every time I think you're just another pretty face, you deliver a thoughtful, introspective post like this. Chapeau, sir!
I think it is cool you were in the biz during what is probably the most fascinating of rock music..

Tail end of counter culture rock (when we lost the 27s) as Vietnam wound down into soft rock, progressive, fusion and the country rock predated by the Dead, Poco, the Band, etc.... The era of disco shadowed by the astounding punk scene that developed as formative pieces of the 90s grunge, then ending with the crossover bands predating new wave, electronica, like the Tubes, Gary Numan. Seeing the split once again in Americana and New Wave.

Not to mention bubble gum pop-glam!

Fascinating period of bookends for you.
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Old 05-23-24, 08:57 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood
Good thread.
Sorry to whine and hate to call-in some individuals but I would appreciate some pics from our guy in Sweden (and the lovely upstairs bike room), @non-fixie and his unique group of riders, @Kilroy1988 and his lovely bikes that seem 'gentile'. @SurferRosa builds them nicely. And does @Drillium Dude ever lurk? How is that nude steel Colnago?

and so many others -
(besides - I'm stuck indoors today. Bring on the Bike Porn)
I guess I am your guy in Sweden?

For me it all depends on… A lot of things!

A historically important bike (technically, provenance-wise or something else that is truly historically significant) - vintage or not, found in working condition I would, depending on why it is important, not even clean. Next level of this is - clean and preserve. If not in working condition I would complete it with period correct parts. If needing frame repair – trying to preserve as much as possible of the original paint and touch up the needed part of it. If extensive frame repair is needed – full paintjob and restoring parts to as to as nice as possible.

Important bike (un-touched by me):



Next level is a vintage/classic bike that is iconic and/or rare. Same approach as above sans the “not even clean” and I would, if the original paint is very good, consider putting on NOS parts of the same make and year/period correct. Even period correct modifications to parts can be contemplated. If the original paint is in bad shape I touch up or consider a full paintjob and then making the parts look as new as possible. If the original paint is totally shot or if it is not possible to recreate anything close to the original paint – I would consider a “fun” project. Doing something special out of it – including modern parts.

Iconic (but not rare)



Iconic but shot and not possible to restore to original (no parts and paint totally shot). Fun project.




Next step down would be an “ordinary” vintage/classic bike in very nice original condition – keeping it period correct with upgrades if I need/want to.

Ordinary bike with nice original paintjob - bought as a bare frame. Chose period and catalog correct.



Ordinary bike with totally shot decals and incomplete parts. Touch up of paint, removing original decals, new decals and matching parts.



Ordinary bike bought as frame. Not vintage but not new. Fun project.



Ordinary bike in bad condition – all bets are off.

And… it is all a sliding scale. As I started with – it all depends on a lot of things. If it is a bike I plan to use or not is of course part of the consideration. I do not understand why one should have to choose one direction or one dogma/doctrine.

I believe everybody should collect, build and use their bikes after their own mind. I do not judge and I can appreciate all kinds of thoughts. I do appreciate a thought though... Doing things deliberately.

As long as the saddle is level to the ground of course. Anything else I scorn and you will be judged as a… 😉

PS and edit.. I like to put up rules for myself when planning a project. This one is at the iconic level bike. I imagined a guy, pre Campagnolo aero levers and seatposts, wanting an aero bike. Built my own aerolevers out of Campagnolo parts - all available in 1983. And a period correct aero seatpost (Cambio Rino). Vintage Roval wheels.




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Old 05-23-24, 09:59 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by styggno1
I guess I am your guy in Sweden?
Forever,....or at least as long as you keep posting beauties in my size.


thank you for your thoughtful & thorough reply.
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Old 05-23-24, 10:23 AM
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I looked over my reduced stable and realized I really only have ONE period correct bike - and that one was modified before I ever left the shop, because the stock parts weren't what I wanted.

My 1976 Puch Royal X is the only bike I have left with non-aero brake levers and friction (-ish SunTour Power Ratchet) shifters. My father bought it for me in 1978, and before we took delivery I had the saddle swapped out for an Ideale 90, the pedals swapped out for Lyotard Berthet mod. 23 platforms, and the chainrings switched out to 40/46. A year later I went back to 42/52T rings and had some tubular wheels built up for it. I NEVER rode it in stock form, and today, now that it is back in my possession it's still not stock - the original pattern SunTour Cyclone rear derailleur has had the cage swapped out for a Vx cage to run a 28T cog, etc. It's still pretty much rides the way I remember it being in the late 70s, and I have lots of history with it, so there.





I guess I DO have one bike with some historical artifact status - the '82 Mercian I bought as a bare frame and fork for $50 20 years ago, that currently wears a mongrel blend of Shimano and Sachs parts. Rides great, amazing handling, has a dented top tube and very tired, scarred and faded original livery. But it was a team-issue bike built by George Bryan for a guy named Tom Mereness who raced with the team fielded by Harvest grocery, Mercian and The Spoke in Boulder Colorado, and that team gave us Marianne Martin, first winner of the Tour de France Feminin, so I leave it alone. Maybe someday I'll score a deal on the appropriate old Campagnolo bits, but for now it's a lovely rider. I'm NOT gonna cut anything off or do any irreversible modifications!




I love fixed-gear bikes for the road, though. I won't shave anything off, but I will seek out frames with minimal braze-ons and good geometry, which explains the '71 Gitane TdF fixed conversion - literally the ONLY braze-on is a pip to keep clamp-on shifters in place. An added bonus is that running this one fixed means I don't have to worry about how to get a non-Simplex derailleur to work with the Simplex hanger. And yeah, I could have a modern frame built for this purpose, and in fact I did and do have such a bike - a custom Mercian - but THIS bike brings metric gauge 531 to the table, and somehow has near-ideal geometry as a road-going fixed-gear, and for some freakish reason the dog's breakfast of Stronglight, Phil Wood with French adapter rings, Kogswell hubs, Weinmann Carreras, etc. somehow works so smoothly it's almost scary. I mean, there is something almost supernatural about how smoothly this bike goes down the road.


Sometimes I want a mad-scientist experience - hence De Selby, a 1973 Raleigh Competition Mk. II with Capella lugs. The 1972-76 Competition appears to have the most tire clearance of all the 531-tubed Raleigh/Carltons, the long horizontal Huret dropouts can accommodate a lot of different gear ratios ... so this one runs 42/44T rings with a 17/19T Surly Dingle and a 20/22T Dos Eno freewheel for 70-in pavement and 60-in gravel fixed, 60-in general noodling and 52-in light single-track. It does all of those things so well you wonder why Raleigh didn't sell them set up like that to begin with.


I'll close with the Lighthouse. I wish I could find out when this one was made, but so far I have had no luck reaching Mr. Neenan. I suspect it was built early enough to have originally had 27-in wheels, though. Most of the parts are serviceable enough, with what I think is a very nice T.A, Alize crankset set up to be almost a true half-step. It's not period correct at all, but it's not updated to current spec, either, and I am fine with that.


I like bikes I can work on myself, that I can afford and can ride the way I want to ride. I am sure all the newest latest greatest is cool and all that, but I'm just not interested. At the same time, while I am grateful that there are those who will curate or restore time-capsule bikes, there is no time, place, nor money for that in my life anymore. YMMV, and good on you if it does. Takes all kinds and all that, and when I get back in shape you're welcome to roll around this corner of South Carolina before some other promoter decides to commodify what were until recently secret gem rides.
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Old 05-23-24, 11:12 AM
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Youza.... thar was resto mods 75+ years ago. Yessir sonny, in the '50's we put effen' hopped up V8 'gins in Ford Model T n' A.

Now the Mecum manics pay dearly for them 'resto-rod's.

Your bikey.... do what you want. Not for someone else's thinking.
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Old 05-23-24, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MooneyBloke
Define vintage! Define modern! Campy ergo is thirty two years old, and even the 10 sprocket variety is twenty-four years old by now. I consider my 2000 and 2002 Peter Mooneys to be vintage.
I tend to think of my bikes with brifters as modern, because they also have a minimum of 10 speeds. At the moment, however, I am building up a 1997 frame with 1995 Dura Ace components which will have brifters, but only 8 speeds. So, will it be Modern or Classic? No matter what you call it, it will STILL be 27 years old by anyone's reckoning.
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Old 05-23-24, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K

I completely understand that a vintage frame built with newer components is a different category than a period correct restoration, but you won't convince me that the vintage frame loses its mojo entirely.

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Precisely this, and I will go even further, if a resto mod gets and or keeps a vintage frame on the road its an especially good thing.

This also exemplifies, IMO that many/most older custom, well made stock frames, etc. were held back by the lack luster mass production parts of the time and really come into their own with a modern upgrade.

And don't get me wrong, when an old frame is done right with the original components, there is no question it is a fantastic bike but many IME suffer greatly with the "best of the time" that simply did not inspire or do them justice at the time.
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Old 05-23-24, 02:15 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by merziac
.This also exemplifies, IMO that many/most older custom, well made stock frames, etc. were held back by the lack luster mass production parts of the time and really come into their own with a modern upgrade.
Yep. Case in point is my California Masi, seen here with the previous owner and a guy who may have had a hand in building it.
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When I got this bike I saw it as a work of art and did little more than put on fresh bar tape and tires, clipless pedals, and a stem to make it fit.
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I rode it like that a few times. It was nice but didn't stand out to me as obviously better riding than any other vintage bike. It was basically a novelty item for days when I wanted to get the full vintage experience, except I really hadn't committed to the "full" experience. I can't abide toe clips.

After a year or so of neglecting this bike I thought about the fact that it had already been repainted and modified a bit, and I decided what the heck!



Since then I have ridden it a lot, including taking it on a couple of credit card tours. In its present configuration, it really does feel like it has a special ride quality. That "quality" may be proper fit a ergonomics, but whatever it is it feels great.

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Old 05-23-24, 02:27 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
When I say Metallica isn't classic rock, it's usually because I find it odd when my local classic rock plays them. I like Metallica a lot, but I don't think they're classic rock. So it goes.
I can see how that might be disquieting in much the way I find it disturbing when I'm buying groceries and something off of Elvis Costello's Get Happy plays on the muzak. Some of my friends had fuschia mohawks when that came out.

Thus we are confronted directly with our aging and mortality.

Last edited by MooneyBloke; 05-23-24 at 02:53 PM.
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