Help me identify the frame manufacturer (and any other interesting details)
05-23-24, 02:50 PM
#1
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Help me identify the frame manufacturer (and any other interesting details)
Hello,
Around 8 years ago I bought a bicycle (custom made fixed gear) from someone who was building them with various (left over) components. I never paid too much attention to it, just liked the look, for the past 3-4 years it as been gathering dust but I decided to take it out and see to recondition it, and now I became a bit curious about its history. I figured out it has Nervex Lugs, with the code 59o3064o22E38. Browsing this forum, I figured out what that means and also that it's supposed to be French (not British) as it doesn't have a A next to the seat post, but 3621 F (i assume for France). I'll try to get some more pictures tomorrow (also realised I can't post any now, so I need some posts first), but what has puzzled me so far is that I was not able to find any details on the front logo, which says KÖNIG Das Qualitätsrad. Any information should help! Much appreciated
Around 8 years ago I bought a bicycle (custom made fixed gear) from someone who was building them with various (left over) components. I never paid too much attention to it, just liked the look, for the past 3-4 years it as been gathering dust but I decided to take it out and see to recondition it, and now I became a bit curious about its history. I figured out it has Nervex Lugs, with the code 59o3064o22E38. Browsing this forum, I figured out what that means and also that it's supposed to be French (not British) as it doesn't have a A next to the seat post, but 3621 F (i assume for France). I'll try to get some more pictures tomorrow (also realised I can't post any now, so I need some posts first), but what has puzzled me so far is that I was not able to find any details on the front logo, which says KÖNIG Das Qualitätsrad. Any information should help! Much appreciated
Last edited by Ruben_; 05-23-24 at 02:50 PM. Reason: attachments
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05-23-24, 03:29 PM
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Hello,
Around 8 years ago I bought a bicycle (custom made fixed gear) from someone who was building them with various (left over) components. I never paid too much attention to it, just liked the look, for the past 3-4 years it as been gathering dust but I decided to take it out and see to recondition it, and now I became a bit curious about its history. I figured out it has Nervex Lugs, with the code 59o3064o22E38. Browsing this forum, I figured out what that means and also that it's supposed to be French (not British) as it doesn't have a A next to the seat post, but 3621 F (i assume for France). I'll try to get some more pictures tomorrow (also realised I can't post any now, so I need some posts first), but what has puzzled me so far is that I was not able to find any details on the front logo, which says KÖNIG Das Qualitätsrad. Any information should help! Much appreciated
Around 8 years ago I bought a bicycle (custom made fixed gear) from someone who was building them with various (left over) components. I never paid too much attention to it, just liked the look, for the past 3-4 years it as been gathering dust but I decided to take it out and see to recondition it, and now I became a bit curious about its history. I figured out it has Nervex Lugs, with the code 59o3064o22E38. Browsing this forum, I figured out what that means and also that it's supposed to be French (not British) as it doesn't have a A next to the seat post, but 3621 F (i assume for France). I'll try to get some more pictures tomorrow (also realised I can't post any now, so I need some posts first), but what has puzzled me so far is that I was not able to find any details on the front logo, which says KÖNIG Das Qualitätsrad. Any information should help! Much appreciated
You need 5 posts X 2 days for 10 to post pics, respond to all posts like this to get there and any other posts that you want to.
In the meantime you can add some pics to the gallery on your homepage that may get moved here.
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05-23-24, 03:46 PM
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The Story Thus Far...
Hello,
Around 8 years ago I bought a bicycle (custom made fixed gear) from someone who was building them with various (left over) components. I never paid too much attention to it, just liked the look, for the past 3-4 years it as been gathering dust but I decided to take it out and see to recondition it, and now I became a bit curious about its history. I figured out it has Nervex Lugs, with the code 59o3064o22E38. Browsing this forum, I figured out what that means and also that it's supposed to be French (not British) as it doesn't have a A next to the seat post, but 3621 F (i assume for France). I'll try to get some more pictures tomorrow (also realised I can't post any now, so I need some posts first), but what has puzzled me so far is that I was not able to find any details on the front logo, which says KÖNIG Das Qualitätsrad. Any information should help! Much appreciated
Around 8 years ago I bought a bicycle (custom made fixed gear) from someone who was building them with various (left over) components. I never paid too much attention to it, just liked the look, for the past 3-4 years it as been gathering dust but I decided to take it out and see to recondition it, and now I became a bit curious about its history. I figured out it has Nervex Lugs, with the code 59o3064o22E38. Browsing this forum, I figured out what that means and also that it's supposed to be French (not British) as it doesn't have a A next to the seat post, but 3621 F (i assume for France). I'll try to get some more pictures tomorrow (also realised I can't post any now, so I need some posts first), but what has puzzled me so far is that I was not able to find any details on the front logo, which says KÖNIG Das Qualitätsrad. Any information should help! Much appreciated
OP's Album.
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05-23-24, 03:48 PM
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-----
the F marking is likely an indication of size rather than national origin
it may indicate lugs made for metric dimension tubes
the German language headplate "usually" would indicate a cycle hailing from either Germany or Austria
Schweiz is also a third possibility, one which would fit in this case
said land has cantons which are predominantly Italian speaking, French speaking and German speaking (there is also a Schweiz tongue called Romanche)
the country's national standard for cycle tubing & threading sizes is metric, sometimes referred to as "French"
---
there be an enthusiast created site which gives an overview of Swiss cycles here. Konig is not listed but then the site is not complete/exhaustive of Swiss marques by any means...
https://www.swissbicycles.com/
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the F marking is likely an indication of size rather than national origin
it may indicate lugs made for metric dimension tubes
the German language headplate "usually" would indicate a cycle hailing from either Germany or Austria
Schweiz is also a third possibility, one which would fit in this case
said land has cantons which are predominantly Italian speaking, French speaking and German speaking (there is also a Schweiz tongue called Romanche)
the country's national standard for cycle tubing & threading sizes is metric, sometimes referred to as "French"
---
there be an enthusiast created site which gives an overview of Swiss cycles here. Konig is not listed but then the site is not complete/exhaustive of Swiss marques by any means...
https://www.swissbicycles.com/
-----
Last edited by juvela; 05-23-24 at 04:19 PM. Reason: addition
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05-23-24, 07:23 PM
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It will be helpful to see MORE pix besides these two of just the head tube and badge and the BB shell, but as you take some more pix can you check the threading in that shell?The fact this has a Nervex BB shell in addition to the "Pro" headlugs is testamony that the builder spent the extra money for the shell instead of subbing a lower cost shell (as was very common practice by dozens of builders who used those lugs), so...a likely quality frame!
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05-24-24, 12:47 AM
#6
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Thank you all for the warm welcoming, directions and feedback. This looks promising! I'll try to take it out today and take some pictures as it's sunny outside; unfortunately, it's not just the frame it's the full bike and I don't have the tools to open it. I'm considering reconditioning it (new paint, change some components - brand new wheels, seatpost, handlebar and have a more uniform look, maybe 2 tone colours) and maybe when I do that I can ask the repair shop to help me with some pictures. I'd also want to know if it's anything worth salvaging from the said parts. I'll update once I get the outside pics.
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05-24-24, 06:48 AM
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...the more looking, thinking & reading you do prior to touching anything the better will be the decisions you make...
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...the more looking, thinking & reading you do prior to touching anything the better will be the decisions you make...
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05-24-24, 09:44 AM
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Helping Those Who...
Thank you all for the warm welcoming, directions and feedback. This looks promising! I'll try to take it out today and take some pictures as it's sunny outside; unfortunately, it's not just the frame it's the full bike and I don't have the tools to open it. I'm considering reconditioning it (new paint, change some components - brand new wheels, seatpost, handlebar and have a more uniform look, maybe 2 tone colours) and maybe when I do that I can ask the repair shop to help me with some pictures. I'd also want to know if it's anything worth salvaging from the said parts. I'll update once I get the outside pics.
His Bike.
Last edited by machinist42; 05-24-24 at 09:50 AM.
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05-24-24, 11:17 AM
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So...looks like this was made in a transitional year between potracatena DOs (let's say '79) and zero braze-ons, nutted brakes, and "whale tail" Nervex Pro headlugs.
I'm going to postulate the crude holes for one pair WB bosses was after-market, possibly riv-nuts that have been pulled off. and that this fork is not original (is it round blades or just an illusion?) but a chance that fork IS OEM, especially crucial to pull the fork and check if it has matching serial number or another clue.
Last the frame was blasted to bare metal and clear-coated but that usually does not hold up for long, rust will find a way yo start underneath the clear and spread like a spiderweb!
serial number on the seat lug will certainly ring a bell for somebody here!
Is this bike worth some work and improving? YES!
I'm going to postulate the crude holes for one pair WB bosses was after-market, possibly riv-nuts that have been pulled off. and that this fork is not original (is it round blades or just an illusion?) but a chance that fork IS OEM, especially crucial to pull the fork and check if it has matching serial number or another clue.
Last the frame was blasted to bare metal and clear-coated but that usually does not hold up for long, rust will find a way yo start underneath the clear and spread like a spiderweb!
serial number on the seat lug will certainly ring a bell for somebody here!
Is this bike worth some work and improving? YES!
05-24-24, 01:32 PM
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Ruben -
keep in mind that headplate could represent the brand of a retail cycle shop and frame may have been produced by someone else
possible the track style fork crown may be a Georg Fischer item
some Fischer fork crowns are marked on the underside with a "GF+"
here we are following a fair bit of discussion and presentation of photos and we have as yet to be informed as to the cycle's tubing diameters and threading - rudimentary information
-----
Ruben -
keep in mind that headplate could represent the brand of a retail cycle shop and frame may have been produced by someone else
possible the track style fork crown may be a Georg Fischer item
some Fischer fork crowns are marked on the underside with a "GF+"
here we are following a fair bit of discussion and presentation of photos and we have as yet to be informed as to the cycle's tubing diameters and threading - rudimentary information
-----
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05-24-24, 02:48 PM
#11
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serial placement on 1953 P. Del Po of Zurich cycle -
exhibiting a familiar looking crown -
full gallery -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/246/del_po_1953.html
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serial placement of P. Del Po machine of 1963 -
gallery -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/19...onal_1963.html
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Goldia Bahnrad of 1965 -
gallery -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/14...nrad_1965.html
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Jules Frei of 1962 -
gallery -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/27...iste_1962.html
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serial placement on 1953 P. Del Po of Zurich cycle -
exhibiting a familiar looking crown -
full gallery -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/246/del_po_1953.html
---
serial placement of P. Del Po machine of 1963 -
gallery -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/19...onal_1963.html
---
Goldia Bahnrad of 1965 -
gallery -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/14...nrad_1965.html
---
Jules Frei of 1962 -
gallery -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/27...iste_1962.html
-----
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05-24-24, 03:19 PM
#12
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So...looks like this was made in a transitional year between potracatena DOs (let's say '79) and zero braze-ons, nutted brakes, and "whale tail" Nervex Pro headlugs.
I'm going to postulate the crude holes for one pair WB bosses was after-market, possibly riv-nuts that have been pulled off. and that this fork is not original (is it round blades or just an illusion?) but a chance that fork IS OEM, especially crucial to pull the fork and check if it has matching serial number or another clue.
Last the frame was blasted to bare metal and clear-coated but that usually does not hold up for long, rust will find a way yo start underneath the clear and spread like a spiderweb!
serial number on the seat lug will certainly ring a bell for somebody here!
Is this bike worth some work and improving? YES!
I'm going to postulate the crude holes for one pair WB bosses was after-market, possibly riv-nuts that have been pulled off. and that this fork is not original (is it round blades or just an illusion?) but a chance that fork IS OEM, especially crucial to pull the fork and check if it has matching serial number or another clue.
Last the frame was blasted to bare metal and clear-coated but that usually does not hold up for long, rust will find a way yo start underneath the clear and spread like a spiderweb!
serial number on the seat lug will certainly ring a bell for somebody here!
Is this bike worth some work and improving? YES!
When you say potracatena DOs - you're referring to the Drop Outs, the stamped Brev. Campagnolo ones, right? So when did the zero braze-ons, nutted brakes, and "whale tail" Nervex Pro headlugs. started to be more common?
In regards to those water bottle holes, what would be the best solution for them? They're not really aesthetic I guess.
Not sure if this is what you were referring to, but the fork's blades are rounded yes, towards the contact with the wheel (don't know how that's called) - similar to the one seen here in this post classic-vintage/1269312-help-frame-id-please.html ; once I'll take it to a repair shop for a full revision I'll ask to let me know if there is anything else in there (such as serial numbers).
Regarding the set post code, I saw on another post about Nervex (can't find it now but will find it tomorrow) a printout with the BB code breakdown and each combination had a different reference that start with 3 and had 4 digit, e..g 3150 and so on, but none starting with 36**. Still a mystery for now.
For your last comment, it looks like it's rust free, for now; but I'm looking to repaint it so hopefully all goes well. Thank you for your post!
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05-24-24, 03:29 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
-----
Ruben -
keep in mind that headplate could represent the brand of a retail cycle shop and frame may have been produced by someone else
possible the track style fork crown may be a Georg Fischer item
some Fischer fork crowns are marked on the underside with a "GF+"
here we are following a fair bit of discussion and presentation of photos and we have as yet to be informed as to the cycle's tubing diameters and threading - rudimentary information
-----
Ruben -
keep in mind that headplate could represent the brand of a retail cycle shop and frame may have been produced by someone else
possible the track style fork crown may be a Georg Fischer item
some Fischer fork crowns are marked on the underside with a "GF+"
here we are following a fair bit of discussion and presentation of photos and we have as yet to be informed as to the cycle's tubing diameters and threading - rudimentary information
-----
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05-24-24, 03:43 PM
#14
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ah, thank you
that confirms metric dimension, so consistent with a possible CH origin for the machine...and pretty much eliminates the possibility of a DE or AT one...
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ah, thank you
that confirms metric dimension, so consistent with a possible CH origin for the machine...and pretty much eliminates the possibility of a DE or AT one...
-----
Last edited by juvela; 05-24-24 at 03:54 PM. Reason: addition
05-24-24, 08:21 PM
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yes, I was beginning to think "Swiss" myself, but...not any common Swiss marque I can think of as being a match. Long back there was a Mondia example shown by a CVer that had serial numbers placed on the seat lug such as this does rather than the typical Mondia stamping on the LH stay cap, but IIRC his was a later example, not as early as the OP's appears to be.
by "round" forkblades I mean round in cross section, typical for track frames whereas most road forks will have oval cross-section blades. But there are exceptions.
The lugs, nutted brakes and lack of braze-ons are consistent with the fashion for frames much earlier than when Campy introduced he shorty (1010B) dropouts with portacatena holes, which most would say were not available for builders until 1978 (again there are exceptions but not going to find them much earlier than '78 especially outside of the largest buyers in Italy).
It's possible these dropouts were brazed in later, but if so...why?
A few more thoughts re: that fork. Just realized it has a modern dual-pivot brake with recessed Allen bolt, which means it might not have ever been drilled (a genuine track fork such as those examples from Speedbicycles dating from late '50s to mid '60s) or it was modified to accept the recessed bolt. Also appears to have a modern (cheap) headset and a stem which I doubt are "metric" spec...easy to pull the stem and read what is hopefully stamped on the quill, likewise there should be a size stamped on the seat post (guessing either 26.6 or 26.4) also easy to pull that out and check
by "round" forkblades I mean round in cross section, typical for track frames whereas most road forks will have oval cross-section blades. But there are exceptions.
The lugs, nutted brakes and lack of braze-ons are consistent with the fashion for frames much earlier than when Campy introduced he shorty (1010B) dropouts with portacatena holes, which most would say were not available for builders until 1978 (again there are exceptions but not going to find them much earlier than '78 especially outside of the largest buyers in Italy).
It's possible these dropouts were brazed in later, but if so...why?
A few more thoughts re: that fork. Just realized it has a modern dual-pivot brake with recessed Allen bolt, which means it might not have ever been drilled (a genuine track fork such as those examples from Speedbicycles dating from late '50s to mid '60s) or it was modified to accept the recessed bolt. Also appears to have a modern (cheap) headset and a stem which I doubt are "metric" spec...easy to pull the stem and read what is hopefully stamped on the quill, likewise there should be a size stamped on the seat post (guessing either 26.6 or 26.4) also easy to pull that out and check
Last edited by unworthy1; 05-24-24 at 08:49 PM.
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05-24-24, 10:09 PM
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Holy Assumption
...
The lugs, nutted brakes and lack of braze-ons are consistent with the fashion for frames much earlier than when Campy introduced he shorty (1010B) dropouts with portacatena holes, which most would say were not available for builders until 1978 (again there are exceptions but not going to find them much earlier than '78 especially outside of the largest buyers in Italy).
It's possible these dropouts were brazed in later, but if so...why?
...
The lugs, nutted brakes and lack of braze-ons are consistent with the fashion for frames much earlier than when Campy introduced he shorty (1010B) dropouts with portacatena holes, which most would say were not available for builders until 1978 (again there are exceptions but not going to find them much earlier than '78 especially outside of the largest buyers in Italy).
It's possible these dropouts were brazed in later, but if so...why?
...
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05-25-24, 02:30 AM
#17
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yes, I was beginning to think "Swiss" myself, but...not any common Swiss marque I can think of as being a match. Long back there was a Mondia example shown by a CVer that had serial numbers placed on the seat lug such as this does rather than the typical Mondia stamping on the LH stay cap, but IIRC his was a later example, not as early as the OP's appears to be.
by "round" forkblades I mean round in cross section, typical for track frames whereas most road forks will have oval cross-section blades. But there are exceptions.
The lugs, nutted brakes and lack of braze-ons are consistent with the fashion for frames much earlier than when Campy introduced he shorty (1010B) dropouts with portacatena holes, which most would say were not available for builders until 1978 (again there are exceptions but not going to find them much earlier than '78 especially outside of the largest buyers in Italy).
It's possible these dropouts were brazed in later, but if so...why?
A few more thoughts re: that fork. Just realized it has a modern dual-pivot brake with recessed Allen bolt, which means it might not have ever been drilled (a genuine track fork such as those examples from Speedbicycles dating from late '50s to mid '60s) or it was modified to accept the recessed bolt. Also appears to have a modern (cheap) headset and a stem which I doubt are "metric" spec...easy to pull the stem and read what is hopefully stamped on the quill, likewise there should be a size stamped on the seat post (guessing either 26.6 or 26.4) also easy to pull that out and check
by "round" forkblades I mean round in cross section, typical for track frames whereas most road forks will have oval cross-section blades. But there are exceptions.
The lugs, nutted brakes and lack of braze-ons are consistent with the fashion for frames much earlier than when Campy introduced he shorty (1010B) dropouts with portacatena holes, which most would say were not available for builders until 1978 (again there are exceptions but not going to find them much earlier than '78 especially outside of the largest buyers in Italy).
It's possible these dropouts were brazed in later, but if so...why?
A few more thoughts re: that fork. Just realized it has a modern dual-pivot brake with recessed Allen bolt, which means it might not have ever been drilled (a genuine track fork such as those examples from Speedbicycles dating from late '50s to mid '60s) or it was modified to accept the recessed bolt. Also appears to have a modern (cheap) headset and a stem which I doubt are "metric" spec...easy to pull the stem and read what is hopefully stamped on the quill, likewise there should be a size stamped on the seat post (guessing either 26.6 or 26.4) also easy to pull that out and check
quick question, when you say metric vs imperial, do you refer to how it's written e.g. 1" vs 25.4mm, or they are actually different in size? Thank you!
05-25-24, 02:53 AM
#18
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Hello, I added a new picture to my album, with the back/top part of the fork, which has 2 aesthetic(?) holes? very similar to bicycles P. Del Po or Jules Frei listed by you!
05-25-24, 05:05 AM
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Hello, the forkblades are round, or at least that's how I see them; The stem has markings on it 22.2 (I think I have a picture of it in my gallery - there are more pics there than what's on the thread); I took out the seatpost, but it's quite scratched and I can't see any markings, however you're right, I used a measuring tape and it's somewhere between 26-27mm.
quick question, when you say metric vs imperial, do you refer to how it's written e.g. 1" vs 25.4mm, or they are actually different in size? Thank you!
quick question, when you say metric vs imperial, do you refer to how it's written e.g. 1" vs 25.4mm, or they are actually different in size? Thank you!
Metric size versus imperial...imperial tubing is 28.6, with thickness of .6-.7, so subtracting 1.2-1.4 mm means the inside measures 27.2-27.4, thus the 27.2 seatpost
...whereas metric I THINK was 28. When you subtract the same you get 26.4-26.6 inside diameter and those size posts.
That really relates to frames made of 531 or SL tubes.
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh International, 1998 Corratec Ap & Dun, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh International, 1998 Corratec Ap & Dun, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone
05-25-24, 07:59 AM
#20
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Mittelholzer Bahn, 1962 -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/36...bahn_1962.html
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Mittelholzer Bahn, 1962 -
https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/36...bahn_1962.html
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05-26-24, 02:05 AM
#21
Newbie
Thread Starter
05-26-24, 02:24 AM
#22
Newbie
Thread Starter
Just curious, if I'd like to discuss upgrade/reconditioning options, should I continue on this thread or start another?
05-26-24, 04:34 AM
#23
verktyg
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Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro
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Nervex Pro Lugs & BB Shell
Nervex Part Numbers
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 05-26-24 at 04:42 AM.
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05-26-24, 05:47 AM
#24
Newbie
Thread Starter
Hello, thanks for the info, I found the post already and was really helpful. I was wondering if the 22mm is for the stem? Because I actually saw that my quill stem has 22.2 stamped on it (and also saw other stamps that had 22small2E38 while mine clearly is missing the small2
05-26-24, 06:29 AM
#25
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me vote would be for continue so new readers of thread can see how it evolved
beginning a new one would in no way be wrong if that is your preference
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