On Thursday the 10th, I rode BART from here in downtown Bekeley to the Milpitas station to pick up a black B17 I'd found on the List of Bay Area Craigs for 80 bones, almost new. When I got it home, (OK, when I was fondling examining it,) I discovered that I had not bought exactly what I thought I had bought.

What I thought I had bought was a B17 Champion Standard.

What I had bought was a B17 Champion Narrow.

Well, no worries... There's a beat-up old (non-Team) Pro on there now, and I'm liking that fine, and I'll swap them out when I get a round tuitt, and...

And then I decide to spend Friday night in ER, and Sunday afternoon and evening suffering through gastric pain at the pit of my stomach. Not indigestion or gas... I was concerned that I might be having another G/I bleed. (The last one almost ended me.) By Monday afternoon I was gazing north up towards UC Berkeley from the window of my 6th-floor room at Alta Bates. Where I remained until Thursday, one week after buying the Brooks that this thread is ostensibly about.

Yesterday, I decided to install the B17 on the PPPKN-10. (You remember the B17 Narrow? This is a thread about the B17 Narrow...). Off comes the Pro, on goes the B17. Those who know, know that this process is considerably more of a pain in the same parts of your anatomy that your Brooks shouldn't be causing you pain in than the preceding sentence would suggest.

The preceding sentence makes sense.

Back to our story.

I was wondering how the two saddles would feel different, despite their being dimensionally so close. In fact, the B17 is 9 mm narrower than the Pro, although it's flatter across the rear. The Pro's leather is considerably softer, although this would normally be the opposite. (Maybe not on the non-Team Pros? I don't know, having never seen one before.)

Got it mounted up last night, roughed in the height based on where the Pro had been. (No two saddles ever fit exactly the same, so your old measurements are just starting points.)

Then today, out for the first ride.

Wait, what?

How is "a narrow racing saddle originally introduced in 1910. Built for mile- and half-mile events," "the choice of track riders through to the 1960s" instantly the right saddle for me on this relaxed-fit, sport-touring road bike with its bars well above the (narrow, track-racing) saddle?

All I can say is that bike fitting is really, really weird.

Has anyone else got any tails to tell about the B17 Narrow, or its cheaper twin B15 Narrow? And was there ever a Special version? (Although I suspect the thicker hide on the Specials might not be a win on this narrower saddle.)

--Shannon

I don't really know if there is a Special narrow of either.

What I do know is I can ride just about any Brooks I can get my hands on.

I have a couple dozen, all sorts, B17, Specials, big and small rivets, Pro's, same, Imperial, Swift, new, old, rock hard, soft, plush, etc, etc.

My favorite and go to is B17 Special with big rivets and Pro's seem to work well too.

It may be mostly Kool Aid but I do know that no C+V is complete and proper without one for me.

I have a friend who went from a Team Pro ( almost perfect fit for him ) to a B17 narrow carved( perfect fit for him) . I got him started on Brooks saddles after he was having trouble with various modern saddles . I was the only C&V guy in our small group. Like merziac , I have a few different Brooks laying around as spares . I first loaned him a B17 Special , no go after a month . The Team Pro was next and he loved it so he bought one new and rode with it for quite a while until he discovered the carved B17 narrow. For me , the Team Pro is the best fit other than a Cinelli #3 . I have never tried the B17 narrow (carved or otherwise) I have the Champion Standard and the Champion Special with the large rivets. All the various Brooks I have work but I prefer the older saddles.

Back in the 90's, one of the bike shops here was clearing out the basement. This pulled up a few B17N's with a "pebbled" surface. As a Brooks fan, I bought one to try.
It was indeed narrower. I don't recall the specifics, but it was probably narrower than a Pro. I didn't really like it and gave it to a buddy who was searching for a saddle that would work for him.

My impression is that the B17 is for somewhat upright riding positions, such as what you'd want on a touring bike. My Pro and Swift are on bikes with a lower riding position. I'm not sure if the narrow is for even lower positions, or just intended for people with narrower pelvic structures. Back in the 90's, I don't think there was a recognition that people had different pelvic widths.

How long has it been since Brooks made a B17N? ... or any models with the "N" suffix?

Steve in Peoria

My B17 goes on my upright just fine and interferes with my butt on a racing bike. The B17 narrow from 1973 is a fine racing saddle.

Though I like the appearance of suspended leather saddles and I do wish to keep my bikes as original as I can, I no longer bow down to the Brooks Butt God.

That old school technology does not, in my opinion, deliver the comfort expected. And I have ridden a lot of different suspended leather as well as more modern saddles. The newer saddles, in my mind, blow the old school leather butt purchases away. No saddle, from a comfort point of view for me, can come close to this saddle...


But good saddle or not, sooner or later it will and did give up the ghost. I spent many winters riding this saddle in Jamaica until one rail broke. Even then, I continued to ride the bike for the balance of my five month winter ride.



Sadly, after thousands of miles of use, it died a well used saddle's death. But lucky for me, another one came my way just a month or two ago when I got back to Canada...



.It is going back on the Cambio Rino, which is my present project...

Hmmm.

I think the "narrower hips" thing might be important here. At 5'11" and 170 American Obesity Units, I'm not what you'd call "lightly built," but I also don't really have anything anyone would describe as a "curve" unless they were being Pointlessly, Purposefully Pedantic. (Which is fun, and I'm a fan, and no shade.)

Where I'm thinking that this shows up in saddle fitting is that I'm starting to think that I might prefer a Brooks one "size" smaller than you'd expect if all you had was my measurements and a picture of the bike. (All equivocations intended.)

I also prefer the flatness of the B17's "seating area" to the rounder Pro profile. (Pro-file?) At least on a road bike. There's not much in it, but it's there. I think the Pro might work well on my mountain bike... the curved rear should allow my to throw my hips around more. (Such as they are, and what there is of them... see the top of this post for excessive detail that you already know if you've read this far, so why did I bother typing this in the first place?)

Further confirmation of my thesis might be found in the observation that my favorite plastic road saddle is the Rolls, and my favorite MTB perch is a Concor. (Flites and Rocket Vs work decently in both roles.)

It's fun to experiment.

--Shannon

I love my two B15 narrow saddles, but honestly I love all my Brooks and Ideale leather saddles. I don’t tend to notice which I’m riding unless the journey is very long, like hundreds of miles of loaded touring. Then I prefer my B17 champion special. I’ll ride for a full day on any Brooks. I’ve got a B17 Champion Narrow too which I pulled off a bike I found on Craigslist and parted out. I never ride this one though. I had it installed on my Raleigh International for a spell but somewhere along the line a previous owner over treated it and it bleeds color onto my shorts. They probably used shoe polish or who knows what on it. I realize most old leather saddles can get this way if they haven’t been ridden for years but this one is really bad. It seemed comfortable to me, if not for the discoloration on my shorts, I’d ride it. As for the B15s, they are great looking comfortable saddles. I’ve never used the tying holes to bring the flaps in, I’ve never needed to. My saddles tend to hold their shape. The saddles I ride most often are Brooks Professionals and Team Professionals. I’ve also got a couple Swallows and a Swift. I can’t find a leather saddle I won’t ride if it’s in good shape.

It's all about the sit bones. What Brooks and other tensioned leather seats have going for them is that those points can be somewhat adaptable as the leather accommodates a rider. But that still might not work for everyone. Break in period is a factor too.

It is interesting to note that while on the topic of building seats to match the sit bones seems rather recent, I remember seeing seats from, I believe, the 1890's to 1910 that addressed this as well as seeing seats with cutouts in the center from that time.

I had the opposite experience. I bought a Brooks B17 woman's model with a wider base and shorter nose. It was intended for my wife's bike , but she liked the looks, but not the feel. I put it on one of my bikes to try it out. Perfect. It felt great. It was a more upright riding position bike. I moved it to the spare seats for now, but it will find a bike again.

Never met a Brooks yet I didn't like or couldn't ride.

Including Cambium's and a cutout Cambium.

I'm with merziac with the exception of the B15 Swallow which I've only tried once (the older original B15 is fine). I ride them all just fine. I do like the discontinued B5N. It's on my '71 Paramount P13.

I have a B5N on the way to me right now for the 58 so the Ideale flat rail can take a break, not that it gets many/any miles.

The more I ride this thing, the better a handle I get on it. First of all, it would be super amazing if Brooks made a saddle with this flatness and the Pro's width. 160mm and flat across the stern. In between the B17 Standard's 170 mm width and the B17 Narrow's 151.

I like it quite a bit. But(t) then, I've liked every Brooks I've ever owned. B17, Champion Flyer, Professional, Team Professional, and now B17 Champion Narrow. All have been comfortable from day 1, once I got the angle dialed in.

--Shannon

Welcome to the Brooks Booty fan club.

Casual bike riders often take a look at my Brooks saddle and exclaim "that looks so uncomfortable!"

I look at their gel-padded, memory foam, double-wide butt-buster, and immediately suffer with childhood PTSD bike saddle memories prior to my first leather saddle purchase at about the age or 13 or 14 in 1971-2. After I bought what was probably a Wrights, my dad would tease me that "your new racing saddle makes you 10% faster." Which was a good joke for my Austrian made Sears Free Spirit 10-speed.