It is amazing how much difference a stem can make.
 

This frame is not small, it is 21", but the geometry of the Voyageur is kinda odd so the head tube is short. I bought this bike a few years ago, had a rack and bag on the front, so the technomic stayed, but it just hung in the garage. I moved the parts to another bike, was planning on selling the voyageur and thought the technomic alone looked goofy. I found some old dirt drop stems for cheap on CL, and thought it would look better to a potential buyer. I took a quick ride after swapping the stems, hence the half wrapped bar, and now I second guessing my original intention to sell it. It definitely looks better, and it feels better to ride with the longer stem.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5c711a02d.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b7b2f4a4.jpeg

Maybe safer too! That first pic has the stem rather suspiciously high for where the minimum insertion line ought to be showing!

(What's the tooth count on that x3 up front IIMA?)

30/46/50

I recently went to a 90mm stem from 110 and narrower bars after my usual double up foam/cork bar tape kludge didn't help much, I rarely ride in the drops and the double up normally solves a bunch of the hand/wrist/elbow/shoulder aches and pains.

I had managed to put the widest bars with the longest stem I had on when I built the bike up, it was all too much and solved about 90% of the problem by downsizing. :twitchy:

This is the before pic but you get the idea.

;)


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...baba72eedb.png

I like the dirt drop stems to get the bars up to seat level. Fitness dictates my time on the drops at my age of late 60s. Even when I’m feeling good late in the year, it will be maybe 25% of the ride, and then only on straight sections. Neck fatigue is a limiting factor. Considering your seat position comments, I find that to be one area that I keep the same measurement within maybe a 10mm range. I drop a plumb bob from the nose of the seat and measure how far it is behind the bottom bracket. All my fitting starts there. Seat too far forward has me falling forward and pedaling down like a mad racer. Too far back is like a recumbent and pedaling forward. Too far back is the only one where I had knee pain. I found the position I liked and everything else is based on that. It took me awhile to discover this concept. Nice bike and my current build is getting a 30-42-46.

I don't understand the function of all those spacers on a threaded steerer. For there to be any height advantage, you have to have the quill stem expander wedge pressing against the inside of the steerer threads - and that has never been considered safe.

But isn't the steerer tube constrained from bulging by the spacers (assuming a snug fit) unlike down in the head tube where the nearest constraint is the headset bearing top race?
Brent

No. Those spacers have plenty of clearance and drop on. They work on unthreaded steerers that have a larger diameter because threads are cut.

By the time the thread tops would touch the spacers, the bottom of the thread grooves will have already cracked.

As you get older the higher your stem the farther towards the front hub it needs to go...

That will be great comfort to your widow.

I don't know why people decide to become experimental engineers. The top race has nothing to do with it - you installed a stress riser on the center of a very long section of threaded tubing, instead of doing the obvious and going threadless.

At least tighten the stem to the minimum that doesn't cause it to slip.

Well ok genius, we both mispoke, you because as usual you should have minded your own business since you had no idea what you were talking about, me because I forgot it was a non issue but since were still here I'll clue you in.

You can build all the bikes you want with fugly threadless, have at it.

This frame was partly built around the oldschool Campy HS, non-negotiable, glad you think you're smarter than Dave Levy, you're not.

The extended HT was to make the frame fit my unusual measurements, fork threading and long steerer was to facilitate it as well.

So here's the rub, maybe you can see how it works.

Even you should be able to see that the whole expander is well below the threads.

So you didn't know, assumed I was stupid but still should have kept your mouth shut, as usual.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5ca418be89.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f858025d11.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...dca996ed00.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7806908346.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...84a9ce13ce.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4d25b04d38.jpg

I briefly had a Schwinn Circuit where the butting in the steer tube prevented a stem from even achieving sufficient insertion to hide the min insert line on the quill!

So a previous owner filed down the bottom end of the original Cinelli 1A's quill to achieve said full insertion.
Predictably enough, the stem pulled free of it's grip inside of the tapered butted section, leading to a brief wild ride accelerating through an intersection.

Something about Schwinn's approach to the design of their small frames/forks during that era...

If perhaps someone has converted your upper headset to threadless, I would not really expect anyone to assume such "creative" (though far from original) work to be present.

And, if so, I would assume that all obvious safety issues have been addressed.

This kind of safety issue of course becomes much more of a thing when the rider's size/weight are on the larger end of the bell curve, while us "fleas" can get away with certain compromises of strength for perhaps a very long period of usage.

Or perhaps instead their choice of available stems to fit to their products? Still, it prolly worked OK until a hapless rider decided to 'improve' on what the factory had sold.

You might suspect the same of mine, but it's in plenty far. Technomic makes some very tall stems.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bbac633d32.jpg

A longer Technomic would have given the same position to the OP, resulting in the same positive change in steering feel, less twitchy, more swoopy, but with a different look.

It is amazing how much difference a stem can make!

I didn't assume anything. You supplied the explanation that the stem ended much higher than it does, and I commented on your explanation. And your explanation was quite convincing, including the part about a small diameter spacer tube supporting the threads from busting out.

But I was also making the general point that nothing is gained by adding such a spacer. The builder could have simply extended the headtube by the same amount, which would have allowed you to use any stem up to its minimum insertion line, rather than having to observe a totally different minimum that you have to measure out - as shown by the black tape.


I'm glad your bike isn't dangerous, but you only have yourself to blame for this interaction. Other folks PM'd me about having had the same conversation with you in the past.

As long as your comfortable with the engineering prowess your suppliers put behind their products I'd be also, were I using similar stuff.

I try to respect my limitations when it comes to topics I don't have much practical experience with, or depth of knowledge, until I can improve on either (maybe both?) over time. One of the reasons I hold forums like this one in high regard.

My pet theory is that any time the 'rise' of a quill stem exceeds the 'run', it will look awkward. That's when you switch to a 90 degree stem. On my KHS frame since the top tube was so long I ended up going to a 70mm stem and ran into the rise over run problem:
Before:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...86c16bed6.jpeg

After
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a95d75d3f.jpeg

The other thing I've learned is that french fit really is the best fit:
My most recent build is my frenchest fit to date, and it rides totally fine:
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...54410edd9.jpeg

I've never heard this. Why is it so?

JMO of course

BS, you clearly stated that "you HAVE TO HAVE the quill stem expander wedge pressing against the inside of the steerer threads - and that has never been considered safe."
when you had no idea what was really going on.

What was gained is the balance of HT extension and spacer instead of an even more freakishly long HT that IMO, the only one that matters was already long enough.

I can't imagine why you would care how I built this frame, the HT was already very long so we added the spacer as it has been common practice for a long time in certain cases such as this.

Hetchins did this and was the inspiration, these were done by Creekside but Hetchins also did it.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7d28a7556b.png

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...hins-duel.html

Also can't imagine why anyone would care so much to PM you about my bike. I'm fully aware it is not everybody's cuppa but I can tell you that it gets plenty and mostly very positive reviews all the way around, where ever it goes, period, hands down.

And while I took it to an extreme, it works great, solved a problem with zero risk and turned out exactly how I wanted it to.

You shouldn't worry about it as it doesn't concern you in the least, despite your misguided opinion to the contrary.

as you sit more upright, your arms rotate outward, to the front...

if your arms droop down below about a 90* to your spine, shoulder loading increases, your lower spine has less flex room, etc...
it's a geometry thing.
your once fitting bike becomes a cramped up, too short bike as you sit more upright, compounding lower back strains/pains..
those adjustable stems end up being the worst thing ever for "comfort", and even make the bikes feel twitchy when raised too far, IMO.

Walmart level beach cruiser/trike bars with WAY Too Much backsweep cause a similar problem, as well as making the wrist Angle painful.
i see an incredible amount of those bikes that are rarely ridden... and the bolt upright seating position also puts too much weight onto the butts, causing the "i need a better padded seat!" syndrome.. that causes nasty CHAFING of some very tender territory... i swap on far flatter bars, a mid width MTB seat, and instant Smiles are the typical result.... and a side benefit is easier standing up for hills and dismounting too!

You didn't read the whole quote:
"For there to be any height advantage, you have to have the quill stem expander wedge pressing against the inside of the steerer threads - and that has never been considered safe."

In other words, for a spacer to allow your stem to go higher than they otherwise would, you would have to put the wedge under threads.

But you didn't get any height advantage, because you you shoved your stem down about as far as if you had cut the steerer normally.

So my statement is entirely correct. And you keep being rude.

Now, if you just want to say, "I did that because I like the way it looks," that's a great answer.

Of course not for everybody, but most. For those of us who remember the days when we rode with our stems slammed and in the drops it is mostly true. At first we have to raise our stems but then somehow the geometry gets discombobulated. But if ya get a stem that places the bars a little more forward it kinda gets comfortable again. Now for those that have always ridden up right on up right geometry bikes there is not a problem.

For me I eventually went to Bull Horn bars. That's completely away from my beloved drops. Osteoarthritis, back problems, vestibular problems, rats I even have trouble getting to my down tube friction shifters now days. Well, going to stem shifters soon, but that's another story.

We do what we have to do, to ride...