number6

Suntour did not go to sleep, but they did get outspent, and did not have the resources and or access to capital to catch up and innovate fast enough, I think they knew fully that the clock was ticking on the slant parallelogram patent.

Schwinn's troubles can perhaps be pointed to way before the "Bike Boom". Way before I started work at a long established shop, like in 1960. Schwinn sent over the big brass to find out why this dealer was not selling adult bikes save some middleweights and the Paramount. They were told politely that Schwinn did not make a serious adult bike below the Paramount, the Schwinn guys did not beleive it, even took offense. The shop was soon no longer selling Schwinn. They felt they could sell the adult bikes to reckless youth, but that was not the world view of the shop.

Greybeard

As pictured my Varsity weighs 29 pounds. When it was given to me in it's stock configuration it weighed 43 pounds. It's no lightweight but it is fun to ride. I was stopped the other day by a guy who wanted to know where he could get one.

Scooper

THAT is really cool. A 29 pound single speed Varsity. Who'd have thunk it? Now I'm tempted to do the same thing..

Rabid Koala

Makes me want one of those fillet brazed Superiors, a Sports Tourer or Super Sport.

cruentus

Did you tell him he needed a time machine?

I guessed correctly, by carefully selecting components -- depending on frame size -- you could get a Varsinental down to 26-27 pounds.

Had Schwinn management been paying attention, they could have greatly improved the Vasinental, instead of building the same bike for 30 years. The new High-Strength Low-Weight steels that were coming out of the auto companies in the 1970's could have been used in the electro-forging process. How does an EF Continental, with modern alloy components, weighing 21 pounds and selling for <$400 sound to you? Made in the USA no less.

Ain't gonna happen now. Like I said, the last couple of generations of Schwinn management were bone-heads.

sykerocker 

If you ever have a chance to pick up a Super Sport in nice condition - grab it. That was my first ten-speed, and it was a very good bike. Got a lot of miles down on that one before I discovered Raleigh's.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C

Greybeard

Well, you can guess the story he told. He had a Varsity when he was younger and he has lots of great memories of that bike. He sees Schwinn bikes all the time in Wal-Mart and when he saw my Varsity he assumed they were making them again.



I did. I really need to post some pictures of it. It now has a 3 piece crank, barcons, etc. I'm anxious to see how Cruentus' Superior frame turns out!

cruentus

It'll be some time before I get the Superior together. I currently have Yamaha parts strewn all over the basement and garage waiting to be bolted into a motorcycle.

When I get a chance, I'll post some pics of the frame. It's really a thing of beauty. The Schwinn people were capable of quality work back in the day.

John E

The golden age of the Varsinental was probably 1963, when they still had downtube shifters, Euro-standard 3:6-bolt chainrings, and REAL saddles. All they needed was aluminum rims.

Scooper

Agreed. I had a Super Sport I bought new in 1972, and rode it for eight years and thousands of miles before it got stolen.

masi61

I read this book a few years ago and couldn't put it down. It saddened me because, as a kid, the Schwinn shop in my town was really special, they had a great catalog, and the dealership (Disher Bike Shop Dayton, OH) was so clean and the manager was great to work with. Schwinn's "Made in U.S.A." aspect means more to me now than it did then, but even as a kid I was aware that the frames were made in Chicago and carried a lifetime warranty. Their delivery bikes were the best! The franchise/exclusivity that they built up WAS a slow moving dinasaur that probably sealed their fate as they were always behind the times a little, but they were on to something with their "Schwinn Approved" parts on their bikes. Back then it meant that the parts they selected from other manufacturers were up to their (high) quality standards and could be warranted as such. If they would have cut some deals with innovators (that they weren't) a little more they could have kept the exclusivity going and pushed their products out onto the leading edge much better. Now when I go into a bikeshop and I see the little "Made in Taiwan" or even "Made in PRC" or "Made in China" sticker on the headtube I cringe. The manufacturers of the new bikes cut their bottom line everywhere they can, how often due you see a Shimano 105, or Ultegra equipped new bike these days does the bike have that same brand and model of crankset or brakeset. They also won't have the correct headset or seatpost even. These new bikes are marketed as high tech wonder-bikes and they're plastered with gawdy, obnoxious decals. Schwinn was retro back in the day and now that its gone, the (wide) niche, it left behind is still not filled. Look at Apple Computer: they're thriving and innovating because they are staying true to what they do, always innovating, and always keeping it proprietary (to them)...very risky, but they've proven that if you're confident and keep innovating, you can survive without watering things down. Look at Scion: here's a car company that let's you configure your ride to a certain extent yourself. This is cool! Bike companies have tried this: i.e. custom paint programs from Klein or Panasonic come to mind. There is a market out there for a bicycle company that uses computer build kits (Orbea comes to mind but I didn't like a lot of their weird component choices) to give the knowledgable customer exactly what they're looking for without going into the $5,000 bike range that is. The GAANSARI's and the RIVENDELL's are onto something with their niche marketing to single speeders or crusty tourists (like you and me). What I'm saying is that the market needs a "SCHWINN" style company, with ALL AMERICAN GUTS and COURAGE to give the AMERICAN consumer a high quality, American designed bicycle,with internationally sourced, innovative, fresh, quality, proprietary parts that does not insult the existing customer base and is so inspired that it wins an automatic market for a huge population of NEW customers. I believe this is possible, and that TREK and GIANT are not what I had in mind. Cannondale before THEIR BANKRUPTCY is closer, and elements of both GAANSARI and RIVENDELL are closer still to the pulse....its just too bad that our politicians universally blame the GLOBAL ECONOMY for why we Americans will buy CRAP, later resent it, but do nothing to reverse the inevitable dumbing down of our products.

BobHufford

Kogswell ...

https://www.kogswell.com/

Subscribe to the mailing list -- you will really enjoy it.

Bob Hufford
Springfield, MO

smurfy

Not long ago Grant Peterson of Rivendell did an interview with Richard Schwinn of Waterford for the Reader and Mr. Schwinn claims that Schwinn was in the mountain bike business before anybody else.

This is not entirely true because although they did introduce "all terrain" bikes like the King Sting, Scrambler and some others they were not true mountain bikes because they did not have what mtn bikers wanted. One of thier "ATB" bikes was based on the Varsity and had tall bmx-style handlebars and I think 26x1 3/8 wheels or some other wierd size that only Schwinn uses and caliper brakes. They just didn't take mtn bikes seriously.

Another example is the Frontier which I own. Mine is a '91 model and it has steel 650b rims. The wheelbase is so long that it doesn't fit properly on the bus rack and I'm afraid it'll fall off the rack and get crushed by the bus. I converted it to a tourer which suits it perfectly.

alanbikehouston

I understood Mr. Schwinn's comments differently than you did. I thought he was responding to the critics who say "Schwinn was too slow to understand the mountain bike market". He seemed to be saying that by the time the mountain bike "boom" got big (around 1988 to 1990) Schwinn was selling more mountain bikes in the USA than any other company.

And, I suspect Mr. Schwinn is correct, yet he missed the point the critics were making. Specialized was the first company to sell mountain bikes in the USA in large quantities. And, Specialized always seemed to be first in sensing what the market wanted. A 1989 Schwinn mountain bike looked a lot like a 1988 or 1987 Specialized...it seemed as if Schwinn had become a follower, not a leader.

Richard Schwinn comes across in the Rivendell Reader interview as a REAL bike guy though. He says he has ridden more than ALL of the other Schwinns combined, from his great-grandfather, on down. And, that is a point "No Hands" made. The Schwinn company of the 1980's was full of executives and managers who did not ride bikes. The fact Richard does ride, and does love bikes may be a key reason that he has made a success of the Waterford company, in a very tough world for small bike companies.

cs1

A classic liberal interpretation on a theme you obviously no nothing about but feel compelled to speak out on. Good luck

Tim

masi61

And you of course are an expert non-liberal I presume? Please articulate your position and enlighten us "libs".

Kogswell

Hey, I appreciate that Bob. Thanks.

Our stuff is all made in Taiwan. And as corny as this sounds, I always ask myself:

What would Ignatz do?

And the answer that always comes back to me is:

Make sure the stuff is TOP QUALITY.

So that's what we do and I think it's working. Customers seem happy.

...

And, yeah, join the KOG (Kogswell Owners Group) message list. Or just read it. A link to the Yahoo Group and the last ten messages are both on the 'OWNERS' page off of our home page:

https://kogswell.com

cruentus

You and alanbikehouston should take this down to P&R.

flags6262

I found this book to be depressing. When I was a kid in the late 1940's and early 1950's just about every kid in America wanted a Schwinn bike. Columbia was popular too but the Schwinn blew them all away.

flags6262

Get it at your local library for free.

wagathon

Support GM: buy a used Corvair.

jacksbike

Well, this discussion on Schwinn sure has blossomed all over the place !
Some more opinion points from me.
Agreed that Schwinn did not adapt to market conditions as fast as they should have. This is where Specialized and Trek jumped right in. Market conditions and trends today are much more quicker and variable than they were 25 years ago. It is up to a company to be on top of what is happening now and what customers want. As noted, look at Apple and their IPod. It still seems sad to me to have seen the collapse of a family run company that provided a broad based variety of products . It seems a bit like what Ford is still like and how Toyota is eating theirs, and GM's, lunch. Toyota is providing 'hybrid-type' vehicles and good value for your dollar. Ford keeps putting out full page newspaper ads for their Escape Hybrid SUV which uses a Toyota hybrid engine. They are not innovating but following.
Since I have been out of the bike business for 10 years, I am a consumer who wants the best value for my money. I do a lot of comparison shopping before I purchase anything. Bike buying customers do the same thing . I believe that a sale for an independent bike dealer may come down to either whatever the customer can get for their bucks or the personal relationship the shop/salesperson has with the customer. I frequent my independent local hardware store as much as possible because, regardless of the price, I know that I can depend upon them for advice on whatever job I am working on. There is NO personal relationship at your local Home Depot or Lowe's. The independent bike dealer has to establish personal relationships with their customers in order for them to keep returning and keep them in business.
My next door neighbor only patronizes bike shops to keep his road and ATB going. My other neighbor bought his $1200 road bike via mail order and continues to buy anything for his bike that way. The latter is the bane of the local dealer.
My point(s), excuse the length, is that a company must innovate in order to survive. Schwinn did not and Specialized and Trek ate their lunch. As mentioned above, look at Scion cars, the Honda Element, Honda Ridgeline pickup truck, and others. Sometimes you have to come out and make a statement to differentiate your firm from others. To me, a Ford F-150 is a boring bread and butter truck. The Ridgeline is a bold move away from that. Specialized made a bold move with the Stumpjumber and look where they went. Trek offered lightweight USA build road bikes, challenging the European makers. Schwinn just went plodding along . It is sad to have seen what happened to them, but, as Specialized has long advertised, "Innovate of die".

Kommisar89

I'll have to read this book. It's strange really - when I was growing up in the 60-70's it never occured to me to buy a Schwinn. In fact it never occured to me that a serious bike should be made in the US of A. I was like that kid in "Breaking Away": bicycles should be Italian. Or French at least. I had never heard of a Paramount as that was way outside my price range and the Varsity et al seemed like tanks compared to the Peugeots, Gitanes, Atalas, and Bottecchias that were out there where I lived. I considered Schwinn a cut above the department store bikes like the Murrays and Huffys but nothing like the European bikes that I lusted after and I mainly associated Schwinn with the Stingray type bikes from when I was a kid in the '60's and the big, heavy, clunky Varsitys when I was a teen during the bike boom. When I was in my late teens and still happily riding my Bottecchia (at least occasionally since I had a car buy then) by best friend's little brother got a Redline BMX bike for his birthday - $450 I think it was. OMG! I had never heard of a bike so expensive. And it was useless for anything besides doing tricks. You sure couldn't ride it anywhere. I drifted anway from cycling for a decade and started on the road to becoming a Retro Grouch. When I returned to cycling in the early 90's Schwinn was down for the count.

John E

OK, based on that figure the best one can do with a Varsity with gears and clincher tires is about 31 lbs. In contrast, a lowly Peugeot UO-8 with aluminum rims and cranks is a noticeable 5 lbs. lighter. However, I broke a UO-8 frame after 4 years of climbing a 12% grade to work every morning; a Varsinental frame would not have suffered the same fate.

John E

As was Keith Kingbay, who fathered the derailleur-geared Varsinentals against Frank Schwinn's advice.