On another thread, Motofan mentioned that he is interested in starting a Motobecane database. I just PM'd him with the specs for the 1977 Grand Touring (source: Bicycling! Road Test), plus the specs for my 1977 Grand Touring.

This thread is to let everybody who is interested know that a database is being started, and also to discuss ideas. Personally, I'd like to see this evolve into a website similar to the website Stephan Andranian started for Gitane fans-- a place to compile and access information on these classic French bikes.

If you're interested in contributing to the database, please PM Motofan with your information.

On a related note, does anybody understand the Motobecane serial numbers, or do we need to do some code-breaking when there's a large-enough database?

Here's the level of detail I sent to Motofan; first, I sent him the specs for the model, then I sent him the specs for my bike. If you compare the two sets of specs I sent, you'll see some differences. One thing, I forgot to include data on my bottom bracket, and that should be a part of the database, I think.

1977 Motobecane Grand Touring Specs (source: Bicycling! Road Test)

Frame: Vitus 172 double-butted main tubes; Bocama cutout lugs; Motobecane deluxe forks; Suntour GS dropouts.

Frame sizes available: 21, 23, 25 inch diamond frames; 19.5, 21 inch mixte frames; (frames measured c-t; source: personal knowledge).

Frame colors available: Gun Metal Grey, Champagne.

Frame specs: (Frame size tested: 23 inch) Top tube 23", Seat tube 23", Chain stay 16.75", Fork rake 2", weight 25 pounds, bottom bracket height 10.75", wheelbase 40.25", head tube angle 74 degrees, seat tube angle 73 degrees.

Head badge: Round brass "flying M" (Source: Road test photos)

Crankset: Takagi Tourney SP, 40/52 chainwheels, 170 mm cranks.

Pedals: KKT TPA alloy or Atom 440

Freewheel: Suntour ProCompe gold 14, 17, 22, 27, 32

Derailleurs: SunTour VGT w/Downtube shifters.

Brakes: Weinmann 99 Centerpull w/Dia-Compe levers and extensions.

Wheels: Hubs: Normandy high-flange with quick releases. Rims: Rigida alloy 27" X 1 1/8". Spokes: three-cross. Tires: Michelin Elan.

Saddle: Sella Italia padded suede

Seat post: SR P3 with Simplex binder bolt.

Bars: Pivo Pro Randonneur bend with black cloth tape.

Stem: S.R.

Price: $240.00

Distributor: Lawee, Inc., 899 Cowles Street, Long Beach, California 90813.



Road test: Bicycling! September 1977. Reviewed by Gary Fisher.




1977 Motobecane Grand Touring

Serial Number:

Owner:

Purchase date: June 21, 1977

Purchased from: Desimone's Drive-In Cycles, Santa Clara, California

Specs:

Frame: Vitus 172 double-butted main tubes; Bocama cutout lugs; Motobecane deluxe forks; Suntour GS dropouts.

Frame size: 23" diamond frame (c - t).

Frame color: Gun Metal Grey, with black bands and gold trim around the black bands on seat tube, black silkscreened "Grand Touring" on the top tube, black silkscreened "Motobecane Made in France" on the downtube, gold trim around the lugs.

Frame specs: Top tube 23", Seat tube 23", Chain stay 16.75", Fork rake 2", weight 25 pounds, bottom bracket height 10.75", wheelbase 40.25", head tube angle 74 degrees, seat tube angle 73 degrees. (source: Bicycling! Road Test)

Head badge: Round brass "flying M"

Seat tube decals: Vitus 172 just below top tube, red, white and blue "M" (with "Motobecane" in the white portion) between the two black bands.

Crankset: Takagi Tourney SP, 40/52 chainwheels, 170 mm cranks.

Bottom Bracket: T.B.A.

Headset: T.B.A.

Pedals: KKT TPA alloy

Freewheel: Suntour ProCompe gold 14, 17, 22, 27, 32

Derailleurs: SunTour VGT w/Downtube shifters.

Brakes: Weinmann 99 Centerpull w/Dia-Compe levers and extensions.

Wheels: Hubs: Normandy high-flange with quick releases. Rims: Rigida alloy 27" X 1 1/8". Spokes: three-cross. Tires: Michelin Elan.

Saddle: Sella Italia padded suede

Seat post: SR P3 with Simplex binder bolt.

Bars: Pivo Pro Randonneur bend with black cloth tape.

Stem: S.R.

Price: $240.00

Has anybody PM'd Motofan with their data? I'm thinking that perhaps we should post the data here. That way, we may be able to detect some sort of pattern in the serial numbers. Additionally, that will provide some sort of data here for people looking for info.

Also, in my earlier post, I forgot to include the headset specs-- I think those should be part of the database as well.

I spent some time in the library today going through back issues of Bicycling looking for spec sheets. Found some good info which I will post later this week. One interesting thing I found: an ad in the January 1978 Bicycling for the Motobecane Grand Record. The ad shows a paint scheme and headbadge that I thought indicated a 1980's model. The downtube had those diagonal paint slashes near the bottom bracket end of things, and the headbadge was the rectangular plastic badge with the "M". I was under the impression that the round headbadge ran through the 70s, and that paint scheme began in the 80s, but my "impression" may have just been an unfounded assumption. Anyway, thought I'd pass that on. If that ad shows a 1978 Grand Record, then the last year for that round head badge was 1977. I suspect the serial numbers will tell us what year a particular bike is, if we can sort out their coding system.

I have a late 70's or very early 80s(????) Motobecane super mirage
that is all there and stock If people might need info about this bike for a
database.

Yes, if you can post here, that would be great. Please see my earlier post where I posted details on my bike-- if you can post to that level of detail, it would be great; as we build the databse, it would help us to sort out model years on "mystery" bikes. Also, keep in mind that I neglected to include data on my bottom bracket and headset, and that should be part of the databse as well.

I'll offer what I know of my early eighties (?) Mirage as well. Though it no longer exists in it's original form I have retained much of the original components.

I'd say there is a need, as finding specific info and attempting to date this Motobecane led to much frustration and ultimately settling for only a general idea about it.

I'm still not sure what the hell Motolite tubing is composed of - and if, in fact, it's what this frame is made of.

Guys,

Sorry for not jumping in earlier. I'm starting to compile info as I get it, and I'll be posting a link soon where you can look at the data we have so far. I'm also in need of suggestions from everyone on what needs to be included. Blue Order's post above shows what he sent me, and it's pretty complete. I'd also like bottom bracket and headset information, as he noted, and anything else you see that we might have forgotten.

Pertinent questions:
Where are the date codes on components commonly found? Example: Normandy hubs have a week and year code, like 04 77 meaning 4th week of 1977.
What are the other components to check out?
Who has reference materials, such as catalogs and owners manuals? I just finished scanning a 1977 owners manual, which I'll be posting soon.

T-Mar, I know you know more than I do about the history of these bikes. Guidelines would be appreciated. Same goes for everyone else - I'll be the clearinghouse, and maybe we can find some pattern to the jumble of information out there.

I was about to say... But looks like you've got one.

Some things to think about:

1) There should be an attempt to sort out the various models, both in terms of their design (i.e., sport touring, racing, Mountain, etc.) and in terms of their place in the lineup (i.e., for racing bikes, a Team Champion would be positioned above a Le Champion, etc.). Additionally, if a model is a European model (i.e., like the Super Champion, which may be/probably is a European model), it should be catalogued as a European model.

2) There should be some discussion of frame materials, e.g., 531, Vitus 172 etc., Motolite, 2040, "Motobecane deluxe," etc.

3) Sorting out the various models as far as their place in the lineup may be difficult due to the fact that specs changed from year-to-year, and thus the quality of a particular model may have varied widely over the years. Perhaps it will be necessary to sort out the lineup not only by frame type, and hierarchy, but also by year.

Here's a list of models that I can come up with off the top of my head. There may be some missing models, so feel free to add to the list. In particular, I think there was a Mirage Sport, which I haven't listed, but I'm not sure, so I left it out for now. Also, I listed the Nomade as "Nomade I," (saw one downtown today) but don't remember if there was a Nomade II. And I could swear there were some more "Super" designations, but can't think of which bikes those might be. Anyway, if I've left something out, please add to the list.

Nomade I
Mirage
Super Mirage
Super Touring
Grand Touring
Sprint
Sprintour
Jubile
Jubile Sport
Grand Jubile
Grand Record
Super Champion
Le Champion
Team Champion
Prolight (aluminum frame)
Mt. Becane (mountain bike)

There were a number of 1984 catalogues on Ebay within the last year. I should have boughtone, and kick myself for not doing it. But I didn't buy it. I would think that somebody around here must have bought one, though.

Just found this bit of info (click link): During the mid '70s, on the front of the seattube/toptube lug, Motobecane stamped a two digit number which represented the year it was built. Maybe your bike has this.

Think I’ll check mine out tonight and see if it’s true.

Funny to see! I'm working on the same idea but for Peugeot in another topic. Parrallel great ideas
Keep up the good work! (Motobecane, Gitane, Bianchi & Peugeot all belong to the same owner now i think: CycloEurope)

Whaaa???? Mine has 73 stamped on the seat tube/top tube lug. How can this be? If this is to be trusted, no one came close in dating this bike - there has been near total unanimity in putting it at 82'-83'. It was a twelve speed and did not have cottered cranks when I got it and though not a lightweight, It was a hair over 26 lbs before I slimmed it down to 24.3. (lighter at the start than my first mirage of late 70's vintage -don't ask me anything about this, I just don't remember but for the simplex derailleurs and centerpull brakes.) This is getting interesting.

I'll post pic's later.

In an attempt to answer a number of questions:

I don't know if it safe to date Motobecane based on the headbage. I've seen the round version on models from 1974-1977, yet I've seen some 1975 models with the inverted house headbadge. The earliest square headbadges appear to be from 1978.

The two-digit markings on lugs may well be the head and seat lug angles, as the reported values invariably are 72 or 73. It was standard practice for some maufacturers to stamp their lugs with the angles.

Known models not covered by Blue Order include: City Becane, Grand Sport, Interclub, Mirage Sport, Nobly, Riviera (folding bicycle), Super Champion and Tandem.

I have a copy of the 1984 catalog. If anytone wants a copy, PM me. I also have compiled a list of about 60 known combinations of models and year of production. The amount of specs available for these models vary substantially. I have known complete line-ups for 1974, 1975 and 1984. Also, a bit of history.

I've also decyhered serial number codes for Bianchi, Centurion, Miyata and am working on Nishiki, so I have a fair bit of experience with serial numbers.

The best reference site for component dating is Vintage-Trek ( https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm ). Unfortunately, the French component manufacturers were lax in the application of date codes, making it very difficult to date many of the early models.

yep !! Sho' nuff...my Super Mirage has a very small yet easily decernable
'75' stamped into this spot !
If this is true, this makes my blue moto even a little older than I thought previously.
I too will post pics as soon as my Wife brings the camera home from school !!

I think it's incorrect. I checked my frame last night. The stamp was on the lug joining the head tub to the top tube (and another, different stamp on the lower head tube lug). My frame was stamped 75, possibly 76, but it's definitely without question a 77. In fact, I checked the Normandy hubs, and they're stamped 77. The possibilities that come to mind are that the stamp is not related to the date, or that the frame is stamped with the date it's assembled (seems unllikely), or that Motobecane had a backlog of lugs from previous years that they were using up. Your 12 speed indicates an 80s Moto.

Gitane and Peugeot definitely do, I think Bianchi does too (going by memory here), and Motobecane definitely does not.

Parallel great ideas.

One more thing comes to mind-- there were some Motobecane stock certificates on Ebay in the last year; it would be great if somebody has one of those to scan.

I've seen another model on Craigslist recently-- I think it was a Nomade-- listed as a folding Moto.

Lugs stamped 75 or 76 would definitely blow my theory that it is the lug angle. It's highly unlikely that it is the date of bicycle assembly, as frames are stamped prior to painting, so as not to damage the finish. Right now, the most likely possibility would seem to be date code for the lug manufacture.

I agree that a 12 speed indicates that a Motobecane Mirage is likely 1980s, provided the freewheel is original. If I recall correctly, EGreen also mentioned in a previous post that his Mirage used Motolite tubing, which would definitely place it in the 1980s. An early 1970s Mirage would have used 1020 tubing.

^^^ My moto has the 75 stamped and 1020 tubes.
I thought though, that this bike would have Huret stuff
instead of 3 chainring Shimano ??

An 80s era Moto could have Shimano, I think... But 3 chainring? That would make an 18 speed.

I think those stamped numbers can't be the date of manufacture. I'd be more inclined to think that they're either a lug part number, or they indicate something like tubing size or lug size...something along those lines.

By the way, the upper lug on my '77 is stamped 75, maybe 76 (I guess I'll have to break down and get some reading glasses someday. Not this decade, but someday...), while the lower lug is stamped 61, maybe 81. So it can't be the date of manufacture, I would guess.

Ok, guy's I gotta fess up to a discovery I made just today. After much scrutiny of the bike, many inquiries, postings, and review of the original pictures, I thought to untape the seat tube and take another look at it for signs of the tubing material, alas, right there where it should be, unfaded and umblemished was a decal indicating 'high resiliency 2040 tubing'

There's a thread on Numbskulls, perhaps I should post this there!

A 2040 tubing label would place it back further, but no earlier than 1976. Assuming that the digits on the lugs do represent the year, could the second number be an incomplete 8, as opposed to a 3? 78 would put it in the right timeframe for the tubing. But then, it's a mute point, given Blue Order's 61 or 81. Back to square one!