Has this been discussed here before? We were talking about it a a shop the other day. Old frames relied on clamps. I think they set the bike off in it's appearance. A little extra shine to it. Another little detail to catch your eye. And they can be modified, shaped, that sort of thing. Braze-ons seem boring, lack luster to me. Any opinions, or is this another stupid thread from a stupid person?

It depends on what look you want. My 1959 Capo has intricate lugwork set off by a two-tone paint job, and EVERYTHING, from shift levers to cable guides to cable stops, is clamp-on. It looks great. My 1981 Bianchi has very plain lugwork, no chrome or paint trim, and everything except the front derailleur is brazed on. It also looks great, in a more streamlined, simple way.

I do like the look of the traditional three rear brake cable guides along the top tube, as on my 1959 Capo. By 1960, Capo had switched to a pair of under-the-top-tube brazed-on clamps for the brake cable, so I have one of each. I prefer the look of the three clamps. (Don't look too closely, since the first owner replaced the OEM Campag. clamps with Specialized. Specialized didn't even exist in 1959. )

i would like both. I prefer braze on shifters but if you wanted to go fixed, [protecting face from inevitable blows and calls of blasphemy and heathen], it is nice to not have the braze on.. also i think routing the cable below the top tube looks better and with braze ons you have no choice but to go on the top unless you put clamps on and then have ugly braze ons left anyway unless you want to cut them off.. but that is a lot of work.

Up until the mid 70s, many builders (Italians, mostly) believed adding braze-ons weakened the tubes. Personally, I prefer the added, clamp-on stuff, because it adds a nice "wearing jewelery" look, but all in all, I don't think it matters a whole lot. The problem with braze-ons is sometimes the placement is incompatable with the components you chose to use, such as an English frame built for Weinmann sidepulls when you want to use Campagnolo, or one having cable stops for the front derailler. I think as Campagnolo came to dominate high-end components in the 70s placement got more standardized. What's going on now with contemporary Japanese components I have no idea, nor interest.

I agree with that!

I have a Paramount that someone has added braze ons to. Shifter bosses, cable guides, water bottle brackets. The shifter bosses are OK as I use barcons and use them for cable stops. I really dislike the cable guides because they let the cable slide back and forth on the top tube and scuff the paint. I am thinking of adding some Campy cable clamps to hold the whole mess in place.

A french 531 frame I had, had a bad(the paint remained soft for 30 years) paint job.The paint would scape off if you looked at it hard.It rusted at every clamp on. I guess this isn't a problem for most bikes,but they do tend to scratch a little at the clamps.
I'm going to put a thin strip of rim tape under all my clamp ons from now on;looks funny,but....Thanks.Charlie
PS I might use tiny strips of 3M invisible bra film instead of the tape.

the someone may have been the Paramount shop...Waterford said that the customer during the 60s through the early 80's could very easily specify any braze-ons that they wanted, if they wanted to wait...

oh, and a little zip tie at the back of the last cable guide, around the cable housing itself, will keep the cable from sliding around...

I heard the same thing from a LBS owner in the early '80s. My 1976(?) AD Ultima has only downtube shifter braze-ons and a mount for one waterbottle. So what changed? Did builders find better ways to retain frame strength (if that was true) or did the market change due to demand for different designs?

(A nice bike is a nice bike, either way.)

Try this, it works well... Apply the tape to the inside of the clamp and then trim it with a razor blade along the edges. Nicely hidden and protects the frame's paint. An easy, one-brewsky job.

Decades ago, Reynolds issued an advisory against braze-on fittings allegedly due to a tube failure in the Tour. Adding shifter braze-ons to the tapering butted section of the down tube for example to an already brazed frame with "brass" is lots of heat at the wrong time. Same goes for other bits post primary brazing. Chainstays are not that much effected as the zone where most have a cable stop are are quite thick, way over 1mm. Bottom bracket cable guides typically on the top sruface of the SHELL were less of a problem. Silver "brazing" bits on is far less heat with a reasonable artisan.

In the 70's there was a slow creep to add them primarily to assist maintenance, I had shifter bosses silver brazed to two bikes to make claning them easier, yes less sparkle but much less grunge.

Now many bikes being restored are having the braze on bits removed, to restore them to original.
I will keep my modified bike as is, I did the work myself in the mid 80's when it was just an "old bike"

For me it depends on the bike.
My RIH (1975) has no braze ons at all, I really like the look of the Campy
clamp on shifters, there is something so right about the look of it.
On the Reus (1990) the whole look is somewhat aero (internal cable routing etc.)
so braze on just works.

Marty

My '61 has brazed-on top tube and rear derailer cable stops - no doubt original too.

-Kurt

I agree, but then I'm old school(and just plain old, to boot ).
I like the look of the pre eighties bikes with the chrome tipped forks & stays, and the "jewelry" as someone else mentioned. I dislike the plain simplicity of the eighties bikes where everything is the same color. It reminds me of a lot of the custom hotrods that are built nowdays. Everything is the same color, body, bumpers, grill... If the glass wasn't clear I would swear that they dunked the whole thing in a giant vat of paint. Just not my taste. Give me the chrome grills. bumpers, and trim of the fifties and sixties.

Just my old school two cents worth. It's probably a good thing that everyone doesn't like the same thing though.

In the early 1980s, Columbus had problems with failures at the front derailleur braze-on. This led to development of a seat tune with helical reinforcements, which later led to the development of the SLX/SPX tubesets.

Teambhultima-good tip-thanks.Charlie

In the late 1950s through the early 1970s there was a slump in bicycle sales in Europe. In the 1960s the economy was booming and although in many places the bicycle had always been the mode of transport for the working classes; now many were buying cars for the first time. At the same time the fitness craze had not yet begun; that started in the 1970s.

Racing bicycles and framebuilders were also hit by this slump and the price of a frame rose very little in that decade even though inflation did. Framebuilders had to look for ways to cut costs and one of them was to leave off all braze-ons. Building a frame without braze-ons does save a considerable amount of time and therefore labor costs. The only braze-ons seen in this era was a chainstay stop and sometimes a little stop under the down tube to prevent the gear lever clamp from sliding down the tube.

Having done that framebuilders could not tell their customers they were doing this to cut costs, hence the story that braze-ons weaken the frame. I think Cinelli started it; framebuilding was never their main source of income (Handlebar stems was.) so the price of a Cinelli frame was always high. So everyone’s thinking was if Cinelli can get away with it so can we, and they followed suit.

Do braze-ons weaken the frame? Maybe very marginally but then so does brazing the lugged joints; it is part of the framebuilding process. I have seen down tubes break right at the clamp on gear lever. Clamps require more maintenance they collect moisture under them and if they are over tightened they can dig into the tube and start a stress riser. But I feel if anyone is restoring a bike from this era they should keep the cable clamps they are authentic for the period.

I’ve just posted this on Dave’s Bike Blog complete with a picture of a bike from this era.