Well I have decided to build a touring bike based around a vintage frame. I have gathered most f the necessary parts and just have to pick a frame. I have two suitable frames in my pocession, a 77 Raliegh Grand Prix and a Scwinn Voyaguer 11.8. I am just wondering what you all think about each of these frames. First I'll give some infor on the build up parts.

Shifters: Suntour Barcon
Front Mech: Suntour Mountech
Rear Derailluer: Suntour XC-T
Brakes: Shimano Aero Levers with Dia Compe Centerpulls
Bar/Stem: Alloy Randoneering Bars with Sakae Stem
Head Set and Bottom Bracket: Probably originals
Seat post: Whatever semi nice piece I can find to fit
Saddle: Brooks B15N
Wheels: For now 27" Alloy rims on Malliard Hubs, eventually 700c's
Tires/Tubes: 27" Bontrager
Crank: Signature Triple
Rear Rack:Blackburn Expedition
Front Rack: Nashbar

The Raliegh Frame is what i would like to use for various reasons but if the schwinn will be noticeablly better I can use it. I have a few concerns with the Raliegh first and foremost the lack of a brazed on derailluer hanger. I have seen those claw adaptors but dont know how well they work. Second its quality appears very mixed the lugs are nice but its finish is very lacking in some other areas. There a few more small things as weel that I will update with later. Any opinions are appreciated. Thanks

Go with the Voyageur. I've always felt that, for the money, the Schwinn/World Voyageur was probably the best frame ever made if you're talking long haul with 2-5 bags hanging off it. Back in the day (he sez, leaning heavily on his cane, the rhumitiz acting up again) I rode a number of more expensive bikes than the Voyageur I built up, and found them all to be a waste of money in comparison.

By the way, you're forgetting one item: Blumel Popular mudguards. It's a personal quirk, probably from having been caught way too many times in summer storms coming off Lake Erie, but I absolutely cannot take seriously any touring bike without mudguards. Screaming downpour in my face and on my back I can take. Wet crap coming from off the pavement, however, is another matter.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C

As a touring bike I would second the Voyageur motion. Good luck!

I like the SunTour barcons, the Brooks saddle, and the DiaCompe centerpulls.

Forgot to mention the Wald Shortie Chrome Fenders I plan on installing. Also in regards to the Voyaguer is there a difference between the World Voyaguer which is always highly regarded and the Voyaguer 11.8. The Voyaguer is actually not my bike but belongs to my dad, though it dosent see much use these days. Another thing the Voyaguer dosent have braze on cable stops for the rear center pull, how do I remedy this? Thanks for the help.

Everest,

The Voyaguer 11.8 (kilos) is lighter than the Voyaguer--- but it could have been the difference in components, and thus does not effect your choice. For the rear brake you could run a full length of housing back to the bracket that holds the cable above the caliper (under the seat at the binder bolt). Loose Screws sells a set of no-name cable clips that secure the housing to the top tube. Good luck! Nice Red Star!

I'm pretty sure the Voyageur 11.8 has chromoly main tubes, but high-ten stays, and the later ones from the '80's were full chromoly. As pastorbob says, the "11.8" refers to the complete bike's weight in kilograms. The Super le tour 12.2, from about the same time period I believe, was slightly heavier (12.2 kilograms), mostly because it had steel rims instead of the alluminum rims on the Voyageur 11.8. Maybe someone else who's more familiar with the Voyageur 11.8 will know for sure about the chromoly main triangle, high ten stays on the bike, I'm sure about the Super le tour 12.2 having this type of frame, not positive about the Voyageur 11.8. In the real world, you'd never tell the difference anyway, especially on a touring bike............Sounds like a great project, good luck with it-

I'll give the Voyageur another vote. I just purchased the Voyageur's brother (though perhaps from a different part of the world), a Passage. Your parts list looks quite simular to mine, though I'm going to have to hold off for a few months on purchasing the Brooks, and I've decided to give Kelly Takeoff's a try vs barcons.

As far as the claw hanger, I have one of the Barracuda Mk.I. Works well enough for a 7speed 27" wheel and a friction shifting setup. I've heard of a couple of other BF members using them with indexed shifting as well with satisfactory results.

On the Voyageur, which cable stops are you talking about that it lacks? If its the rear stop of the casing before it runs down to the brake then I believe Nashbar and loosescrews both sell a cable stop that attaches to the seatpost binder bolt. I also may have one around that came off my 1980 Schwinn Traveler if you'd be interested in trying that one. In any case, that shouldn't be much of an issue to resolve with the Schwinn.

One last word on the voyageur is that the stem quill needed may be the smaller diameter often found in Schwinn's. (Exact size #'s escape me atm) Nothing that would keep me from using the Schwinn, but something to consider at the same time. Looking forward to seeing your finished build, I hope to have mine Schwinn tourer back on the road soon.

P.S. - if you're looking for a cheap but good 27" tires, Nashbar has the IRC DuroWinner II's down to like 12.XX each in 27x1 1/4" and 27x1 1/8" sizes. I've got a pair of the 1/8's" on the Barracuda and got the wider size for the Passage.

While I'd rather take the Grand Prix for a casual ride, I too would vote against it as a touring bike. The geometry is actually more appropriate for racing. Now if you had a Super Course as the alternative, I'd recommend that instead.

Could somebody provide a ref on the frame specs for the Voyageur? I've not been able to find anything (and have spent too much company time looking!!).

My understanding is that the Gran Prix is a Hi-Ten steel frame (read: heavy as a boat anchor). Weight issues aside, IMO, touring is all about the frame geometry and, of course, fit.

Hit the competitive cyclist web site and do their fit calculator for a "French Fit" (bars high for touring). This will guide you on which frame will give you a better fit.

Also, most folks need at least 43cm of chainstay length for decent heel clearance with panniers. Big footted folks like me (size 13) need 44cm. Related, I prefer 5.5cm of fork rake (with 73 degree head angle) for front bags. I would steer clear of either frame if it violated these.

Regarding all of the cable fittings and such, they can be found and all work fine. Yellow Jersey is one of a few sources, as are older LBS's with good parts bins. The difference in all cases is 99.9% aesthetic.

If you are really going to do loaded touring on this rig and want to keep the rear drive train original, I would look for a half-step/granny triple crank set. Much better when using a 5 or 6 speed cluster for touring as it gives closer steps between gears.

I also highly recommend Suntour bar end shifters.

Regarding tires, which Bontrager tire are you using? There doesn't seem to be any good lightweight 1 3/8 touring tires anymore like the old Specialized Expedition. I'm using the Schwalbe Marathon which is claimed to be 1 1/4 but really measures out to be more like a 1 3/8 tire. The side wall are heavy but the ride is great. I would go long distance on the Marathon in a heart beat. I would NOT use the Michelin World Tour myself. Not very impressed with their ride but YMMV.

Lastly, upgrade the brake pads to the KoolStop Salmon MTB pads. These turn your centerpulls into a great touring tire. When you are hunting for cable hangers (at seat post binder bold and headset), dig hard to find the old Dia-Compe hangers that had quick release built into them. If you go old school on the brake levers, find the old Wienmann or Dia-Compe levers that had quick release built into the levers too. This combination of double quick release in the levers and the cable hangers combined with center pull brakes will allow you to deal with the really fat tires with ease.

Here's a bit of information on the Voyageur 11.8 I pulled from the original Schwinn catalog page scan that was sent to me by Bob Hufford a few weeks back when I was looking at purchasing one from ebay:

1982 Specs:
4130 chrome-moly with double butted top and down tubes
Chainstay: 16 7/8"
Headset & seat mast angle: 73 degrees
Fork Rake: 2"
Original equipment included mostly Shimano Altus LT parts, 27" alloy rims, 13-28 freewheel, SR stem, bars and seatpost.
Weight: 26lbs.
Wheelbase: 40"
Bottombraket drop: 2 3/4"

The tubing definitely sounds nicer than the Raligh but 16 1/8" chainstays!!

Yikes, that's only 41cm, which in my book is racing bike short. The rider's shoe size, pedal/cleat set up, rear rack and pannier set up will all have an impact. But still, I'm betting that heel strike will be an issue with stays that short.

Could somebody verify the chainstay length with a tape measure. I generally measure from center of the crank to the axle.

I'm going to be away for two weeks but will post an update when I return, Cuda's Specs fit this bike exactly at least for components not positive on measurements. As for heel strike I have 10.5 shoes with look pedals on 170mm cranks, will it be a problem. It looks like it will be the Voyaguer that is used as a tourer and the Grand Prix will become a fixie.

Upon closer inspectiono of the scan, it appears that the chainstay is in fact 16 7/8". Or approx 42.85cm. The page is a bit pixelated and had to save it down to the computer and enlarge it abit to notice it was a 7 and not a 1. Hope this helps.

42.8 cm sounds much better. Many sport tourers from that era had 43cm stays so that would be consistent.

Everest, ime 43cm *should* protect you from heel strike but there are several variables, as noted before. You should be ok though.

Yes, but much of what makes a bicycle heavy is the componentry. The frame on a GP is maybe a pound heavier than one made from normal 531. It's a featherweight compared to a Varsity or a Continental.

I am biased but the GP can not compare to the Voyageur. Your ride will be much better on the Voyageur frame.

+1! I bought a set for my steel rimmed Traveler before I switched to alloy Ukai rims off a Le Tour. First, they are way oversized and barely cleared the chainstays with less than an 1/8 of an inch clearance. Second, my rear blew out after about 10 days of riding. About 10 inches of the wire bead was exposed. Fortunately I had just started up a steep hill so I was only doing about 5 mph.

I've heard good things about the Pasela Panaracers. When the Bontragers on my touring bike bite the dust, I'm going to go with the 27" x 1-1/4" ones. They even make a folding version of the tire (convenient for carrying a spare).

Yeah I'm going to go with the Bontragers for now they look to be brand new and were free from a garage sale bike, I think they replacd the tires just to sell the bike. When I were those out I will throw on some Panracer Pasaelas.

Yes, the Panaracer Pasela's are an excellent choice, I've been running some 700 x 32's on my Schwinn le tour luxe for several months now and have been very happy with them. Bike Nashbar usually has them for a good price, both in 700c and 27". I'd recommend the Pasela Tourguards over the standard Paselas, they have a layer of kevlar beneath the tread to help prevent flats, and they have the lighter weight kevlar bead, all for about $20 each.