masi61

I planning how fund a modernization project for my 1978 Masi GC I'm considering 3 (or 4) different rear hub options for my 120/126 mm rear triangle bike.
You see, right now it can only handle 5/6 speed freewheels, my old Campy tubie wheels that I was going to re-use are spaced like 123mm and can't go full 126mm without a replacement axle. I want to run an indexed 7 speed rear end with a modern wheel build that will include contemporary machined sidewall clincher rims. (Please don't tell me to have my frame cold set for 130mm, my frame is a collector's item and the rear seat stays are beefy as hell, gently spreading it to 126mm is even pushing it ).
Anyway, I've been hitting ebay + swapmeets over the last few years and I have collected some interesting bits. It will definitely be a bit of a "Frankenstein" set up, but I'm excited to turn my classic into more of a daily club rider.
Here's what I have to choose from:
1) Campy High Flange 5 speed 36 hole rear hub with Super Champ tubie rim. Its a 120mm originally that would need a new Wheels Manufacturing axle in the 134mm (or 137) length, I am planning on dis-assembling this wheel and having it professionally rebuilt with a DT Swiss clincher rim since the old build is sub-par.
2) SunTour MicroLite 7speed cassette hub 32 hole new old stock from ebay. I bought this and its a nice hub that's a bit scratched up from improper storage but it's new. I have a new Powerflow 12-28 cassette for it that would work with my Superbe Pro indexing down tube levers and XC-Expert accushift rear derailleur. First Flight Bikes in NC carries a 12-19 Powerflow 7 speed cassette still - I was going to buy that and swap out some of its cogs to build a tighter ratio cassette like maybe 12-21 to work with the Dura-Ace triple 7703 crank I plan to use. Again, this would be built up into a DT Swiss clincher.
3) Dura-Ace 7400 7-speed cassette hub 28 hole to be dis-assembled and rebuilt into a semi-aero DT Swiss RR 1.2 rim, and I plan to purchase a 28 hole Ultegra 6500 or 6600 front hub to go with it. I have 2 NOS cassettes for this a 13-19 and a 12-21. This hub's cassette has a proprietary outer lockring cog for the Uniglide cassette that you can't get anymore.
4) Specialized low flange 36 hole sealed bearing 126mm hubs to accept a Dura Ace or Winner Pro 7 speed freewheel. I just missed an opportunity to purchase 4 (!) Winner/Winner Pro 7 speed freewheels at one time off ebay for $55 ! I need a nicely spaced Winner Pro 7 speed, the 2 I have now are wide spaced touring models. These hubs would be dis-assembled from their crappy Matrix ISO-C rims and rebuilt into modern DT-Swiss RR 1.1 or Mavic Open Pro rims.

Sorry for the dizzying complexity of my querie
.
But, which of these 4 options would you personally pounce on first?
By my very inquisitive nature, I will probably try out all 4 (and then some) options eventually, its more a money and time thing.
Feel free to ask follow up questions or educate me on what will an will not work.

reverborama

How many spokes will your front wheel have? Personally I would probably go with the Specialized but that's just me. If I were trying for the classic look I'd go with the Campy. I like 36 spokes. But whatever I would select, I'd want a matching hub with the same number of spokes up front.

lotek 

firstly, kudo's on not wanting to spread the frame.
I'd personally go with the Campy High flange, but thats just
personal taste and aesthics.
One option (and I don't know if it would work) how bout
a Suntour Ultra freewheel? would that fit you current wheel? (I never used
the ultra 7 only the ultra6
Just slightly off topic, I recently bought a Specialized Pista hub, and I'm pretty impressed
with it, very nice hub well made, that said the specialized would be my other
choice. The newer suntour doesn't impress me and the dura ace is well, not my cuppa.

marty

masi61

Whatever rear wheel I have built, I plan to have the front wheel have the same number of spokes. The Dura Ace 28 with the modern Ultegra 28 front would have to be built with semi-aero rims to be strong enough for me. I've been surfing for a Dura Ace 28 hole (7400 series) front - not easy or cheap to come by. The Specialized are really under-rated hubs they are highly polished, with satiny smooth bearings and great matching skewers. Even the axles and locknuts are chrome plated.
I just got an email from bicycle classics and they have a genuine Campy replacement axle in the size I need (134mm) for reasonable $ - YEAH !

masi61

Thanks for the KUDOS LOTEK. I get tired of people telling me how easy it is to spread a frame - it isn't, nor is it something that I want to do.
The Campy high flange are really pretty. I'm starting to think they're extra desirable by the ebay crowd. How high will this https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...3993&rd=1&rd=1 auction go? Back in the 80's high flange campy hubs were for nerds .
I bought a 7 speed Winner freewheel from an ebay vendor who listed it as ultra but I think its just the regular suntour (irregular) cog spacing - they're quite wide. I've seen the Ultra 6 you're talking about occasionally but they seem super rare these days.
It looks like lot of folks recognize that Specialized makes sleeper nice hubs that are under the radar.
I like Dura Ace for the aesthetics and the functionality. I know for a fact that 9 speed triple Ultegra cranks work great with 6 and 7 speed Uniglide cassette - no problemo.

lotek 

High price for high flange hubs?
can you say C Record Pista high flange. $400 easy.

I've seen 7 speed ultras on ebay occaisionally but they are not cheap.

Marty

TheOtherGuy

By the late '70s, high flange were out of fashion... Everyone was convinced that low flange gave a smoother ride. For a '78 Masi GC, I'd go with either Campagnolo small flange, or OMAS...! The OMAS would have been period correct, very Italian, had a more modern look, and sealed bearings to boot! Very nice hubs, that go cheaply on eBay... Hilary Stone just sold a NOS set of the Ti axle version OMAS for less than $100, I think. Other correct hubs, especially in the USA, would be the Phil Wood or Bullseye. All are excellent hubs. Japanese parts on your '78 Masi would just rub me the wrong way...

masi61

I bought the bare frame in like 1979 and it came with a Campy bottom bracket and Campy headset. I was young and dumb and had the bikeshop remove the campy bottom bracket and install a (Gasp ! ) Dura Ace dyna drive crank and matching bottom bracket.
The only saving grace to this weird decision was that, at the time, you could order complete bikes from Masi California and one of the build kits was..you guessed it, Dura Ace.
My frame always felt kind of California/American custom to me, with some Italian thrown in. Weird that you would mention Bullseye - thats exactly what my first tubular wheelset was for this bike. I still have them, black flanges with sorta yellow anodized sleeves in the middle. They were really smooth back in the day and still are - I kind of think the little set screws to keep the spacers in place on the aluminum axles is under-engineered and finicky by modern standards.
I like the OMAS idea, its just that I've got all these other irons in the fire.

cyclotoine

I'd like to see pics of the specialised? what is the profile? are they from the 80's? I think if they have a classic profile and you want to go 7-speed... they are the most economical option.. that said, the highflange are sweet and I want a pair very badly but will not pay out the $300US for the above auction... what is the component group? If it's campy I say go highflange.. if it is a mix with japanese I say go specialised.

USAZorro

I like how cyclotoine & lotek are thinking, though OMAS (if you can get them) would be the cat's pajamas.

masi61

I already have both the Specialized and the HF Campy's. I probably have several new wheelsets built in the next year or 2. One will be clincher, but I may go with some modern tubular rims as well. There don't seem to be as many choices in tubular rims anymore. My bike definitely is a mutt, with a lot of Japanese to it. I'll work on getting some pics out.

lotek 

Do the ebay thing and get some NOS Mavic SSC rims, or to be period
correct etc. get some Martano bow ties, or fiamme red labels (pricey).

Marty

T-Mar

If you want to run an indexed shifting system and NOT have to respace the rear triangle, then Dura-Ace is the way to go. By not re-spacing the rear triangle, you run more risk of bending or breaking axles with a freewheel style hub. The freehubs are more resistant to this by virtue of the wider bearing spacing. Since SIS parts are more readily available than AccuShift, that would seem to be the way to go.

Road Fan

Original equipment would have been the Campy NR low flange with Martano tubular rims, or Campy Super Record low flange. Not Omas. The Campy hubs are common and pretty reasonably priced on Ebay, but not so the Martano rims. They can soar up to $350/ or so per pair for NOS, when found. Many people in those days upgraded to Phil Woods or Omas to save weight or add robustness, but in those days I think Japanese parts were considered below the level of Campy Record in ultimate quality, even though they were seen as the cost-effective solution. Few Masis were shop-built of customer-specified parts. It happenned, but most were factory equipped.

I subscribe to the idea that in modern times, you can replace an antique's original parts with available replacements, as would someone faced with keeping their main ride working. So in place of the Martanos, I'd have no problem going to Ambrosio, Fiamme, Mavic, Nisi, or Wolber tubular rims. And because in addition I like tubulars, I would not go to clinchers. Because freewheel cogs are wear items, I would not waste time finding the original Regina rear cluster, I look for good quality cirrent or vintage parts that are compatible with my frame (width) and shifting system (tooth count and gear inch spread). I think this is a practical philosophy of "restoration" that results in a nice old bike that oes not look out of place.

Ken

masi61

I plan to use shimano 600 7 speed indexing shift levers instead of dura ace levers with my triple crank set up. then I'll use a triple compatible shimano rear derailleur such as a Dura Ace 7703 or Ultegra 6503 (if I have my model numbers correct).

OrangeOkie

If you want to go concours, then obviously go Campy. If you want the highest quality vintage components available then go Suntour Superbe pro hubs, deraileurs, and shifters. A note about Accushift compatible free-wheels and cassettes. Any 4-notch 6 speed free-wheel will work. The 2-notch "ultra" 6 speed freewheeel will not work correctly indexed. Any 7-speed freewheel will work properly. Also, any "Alpha" (desginated with the greek "a" symbol) will work indexed.

Your microlite hub works best with AP (Accushift Plus) cassettes, rather than Powerflow.

If you decide to go with Suntour, PM me and I will give you a few more tips on which componets work together best, based on Suntour factory manuals.

TheOtherGuy

Ken, while I don't know about most Masi in the '70s, there was a LBS I used to frequent that had both built up Masi, and lots of Masi frames hanging up in the shop. That was Ralph Carnavale's Bike Rack in Huntington Beach CA, and around '75-'77. Plenty were built up there from whatever the customer spec'd on them. At that time, the Japanese parts were thought of as "getting better" and "pretty nice", but still not considered Campagnolo quality (even if it was better). Dura-Ace (called "do-you-race?") was considered nice, but an inferior replacement for those who couldn't afford Campagnolo. I mentioned OMAS and Phil Wood not as original parts, but common period upgrade or replacements.... And I happen to like both, vintage Phil Wood and OMAS parts... If the Masi in question were mine, it would be mostly all Campagnolo Super ('78 could go with either first or second generation Super...), with some OMAS lightening parts.
Phil hubs, Campagnolo small flange, or OMAS hubs...all period correct, with Campagnolo by far the more popular. The OMAS and Phil hubs had the perceived advantage of being sealed bearing; something modern and cool. Now, my favorite group of that era was Zeus 2000, but I still wouldn't have it on a '78 Masi GC... The Zeus 2000 goes on my late '70s American or English frames. For the Masi, Italiano all the way, with the possible exception of some American hubs... At least for my tastes.

teambhultima

I certainly can't add to the expertise shared in the replies above, but I'll throw a plug in for high flange Campy. I have 2 pairs of the old HF Tippo hubs and they've been great. Not as glamorous as Campy SR, but they look good on my bike, are durable and are period correct. Do you have the HF front hub to go with the rear? If so, that's my vote for your first set to build, especially if you can get that Campy axle. I see very few high flange wheels out there nowadays... they would show nicely on your Masi.

Best wishes!

masi61

Thanks for the input. I do have one AP cassette (NOS) which goes with another Suntour cassette hub I bought from ebay. The splines on the cassette body seem slightly different. The Powerflow cassette I have fits perfectly. I was going to go with the microlite freehub because that's what I had. If I had known about the Superbe Pro freebhub earlier I could have bid on a few nice seven speed sets that have already come and gone on ebay. Honestly, this microlite one seems comparable to Superbe Pro, its more the "shelf wear" that kind of ruins the beauty a little. Its disappointing when new old stock parts look like they were hauled around loose in the back of somebody's pickup truck bed for 10 years. I've got an AP, and an AP II chain by the way, and come to think of it the Powerflow cassette also says AP II. I was going to use a long cage Accushift rear derailleur with my Superbe Pro index shift levers so that I can run a triple crank up front. The XC Expert was the one I intended to try first because it looks a little more conservative on a road bike compared to the really long cage XC 7000 that I also have. Somewhere I read that SunTour gave up on Accushift toward the end (of Suntour) and made the XC Expert's pull equal to Shimano spacing. Not sure if that's an urban legend or not, I'll probably find out. I bought some individual Winner cogs off ebay to try to convert a wide range winner pro 7 to tighter ratios. I do have a 36 hole new old stock Superbe Pro front hub and also one "grease guard" XC Pro NOS front hub also 36 hole. Its weird how when you're cobbling together a project, the parts kind of trickle in where you can get them. I don't have to deep pockets to bankroll a period correct ride where all the parts match perfect. That doesn't mean I don't have some aesthetic and mechanical sensitivity about how I go about this thing. To the contrary, I kind of pride myself on my ability to pull together a solid, good looking, great functioning package. Over the years my MASI has had half a dozen iterations. Now that I'm approaching middle age I'm still respectful of the Masi, definitely not willing to thrash it about recklessly like when I was 19....

masi61

When I bought the Masi the shop had 2 frames hanging there, one Italian, and the other A Californian. I selected the California Masi in size 61 thinking I needed the bigger one for comfort. The metallic silver blue Italian Gran Criterium was the same price, it was $440 also, it had the flat fork crown, and the lug work and paint work were sloppier. It also had no braze ons. At the time I figured my Black Masi (Gran Criterium without the flags) was more custom with the sloping fork, clearcoated decals, down tube and top tube braze-ons, etc... I never could afford the full campy treatment and still really can't afford vintage campy. But honestly, older campy front derailleurs, and side pull calipers are so mechanically inferior that I never felt like I was missing much when I didn't go with them. The Nuovo Record rear derailleur looks classy, but shifting precision is also, shall we say, dated.

Road Fan

Well, I'm happy to have my knowledge increased. I would stick (HAVE stuck) with Campy NR/SR. There's lots of period correct stuff out there, but I like Campy, and in the writings of some of the Masi builders, so did Masi. At the same time, I think Masi equipped bikes with what was ordered, what could be sourced and with what had been sourced. Faliero was (I think) trying to get richer in the US Bike Boom, after all.

Bikes are 85% religion, 50% engineering, and 95% superior craft, after all. It doesn't have to be rational (or to add up)

repechage

Do note: Ralph Carnavale was smart, he bought frames bare so, "I make it custom for you" would command a higher price. And possibly fit better as bar and stem, crank length would be decided after the owner was measured. Also kept him different, back then a (California) Masi could be bought many places.

I also agree, the California bikes had a more consistant high level of finish than what the Vigorelli was turning out at the time. Thats why I have four.

From reading the posts, (could not earlier as kept getting a database error message) it looks like that the methodology I would take is: Get the drive train settled, there are shifting, freewheel and or cassette issues to resolve that are compounded by spacing. Lightly fit this thing together in while in a rack, with chain installed and test shift it. An underspaced frame, and cramming cogs CAN work, but one does not want to commit to building a wheel BEFORE testing the drivetrain. I would also vote on keeping the frame spaced the same, but I do have a Masi that was respaced, it will stay that way, done in Italy, before I got it. That one carries an Ultra7, Campagnolo, and a bit more dish than I like.

I would look at the Campagnolo and or Specialized hub alernatives first form your parts bin. You can set up the Campagnolo hub in the rack with zero axle engagement, the skewer will hold it in position, set it up so the sloppy side is on the off drive side.

Test, don't GUESS.

masi61

This last statement looks interesting.
Could you elaborate more on that?
When you say the sloppy side is off the drive side, are you saying that you set the (Longer) 6 speed axle up so that the drive side only uses enough axle spacers to allow the smallest freewheel cog to spin in the dropouts without interference, then add spacers (if any) as they are required on the "off drive" side to remove any "slop"?
I will be ordering a 134mm Campy replacement axle for my high flange hubs, this will permit use of 7 speed. I tried using the 129.5 mm axle spaced out where there is nothing but little nubs sticking out the ends of the Campy locknuts, but I'm not happy with that. You see, I have an older Park Consumer truing stand with axle clamps that bevel downward slightly and need some axle projection beyond the locknuts in order to engage the axle tightly in the stand.

Sammyboy

Wow! I've just put an identical set of high flange Record, laced to Fiamme sprint rims, on UK Ebay for £40 starting price. If people go with them the way that auction is going, I'll be a happy man....

masi61

I hope your auction attracts a mystique that drives up the cost. Do you want to post a link to that auction so others can monitor it? I've heard that complete wheels do not go for as much money. I think collectors like the whole "new in the box" NOS blah blah thing. If you go back to that auction, you'll see that the bids were over $200 USD but they didn't sell because they didn't meet the reserve - I think that seller has balls for setting that reserve so dang high .
Certain sellers will lay out their goods with a little extra flair that I think builds some mystique that draws in less knowledgable bidders then drives up the price (unnecessarily) all of which benefits the seller. Sultan of Schwag is one seller that comes to mind - very good item descriptions and nice items that are usually well used, but he gets good money for all of his stuff I think because of the swagger that he puts into his photos and descriptions. Am I making any sense Sammy?