Thanks Sam.

There are lots of factors involved - bike size, handlebar dimensions, where you position your hands, the type of riding you do, what you're used to, etc...

I think there are some indexed shifters that only let you go up-down one click at a time, and there are others that let you do multiple. If I was racing, I'd want indexed. Since I don't, I wouldn't feel significantly advantaged, or disadvantaged using bar cons, down tubes, or STI. If there was some sort of equipment failure - then I'd want them to not be STI.

I just like barcons, all but one of my bikes have them.

I have a seldom used bike with brifters and I still prefer the barcons. I have always liked them, especially the SunTour ones.

Bekologist, your replies are ripe with retrogrouch-ism. These threads are like winter entertainment, almost like eating Dorito's... They're too tempting to resist.

Here's a few contrapuntal remarks to ponder:

1) Fast shifting is not the same as accurate shifting. If you're on a club ride with veteran cyclists, I suspect that they'll know the ins and outs of being in the right gear for the right terrain, wind condition, drafting scenario, etc.. Sure there are a few times when you want to make multiple shifts at the same time, but I doubt that one rider's ability to go from one end of his cluster to the other in one sweep is going to make any co-rider envious of that rider's ability to PUT the HAMMER DOWN . Its a nice fantasy, but good riders know their own steeds whether you click through one or ten simultaneously.

2) Friction shifting can certainly be quick when you're riding solo on an open road, but when there's heavy traffic, its dark, the road is potholed, or other riders are better than you - you're keen ability to deliver perfection gets compromised. I can't tell you how many times over the years my surgically clean drivetrain with the perfect chain and fresh lube, etc... will malfunction in the real world just enough to assure that you will get dropped, or forced to miss a traffic light or ride into a ditch, etc...

3) STI has been around enough that you won't be lambasted for not being RETRO enough. I mean, this stuff has been around since the late 80's (or earlier). Shimano Downtube STI 6 and 7 speed indexed systems are VERY classic in my book. They work wonderfully, are cross compatible with a lot of contemporary and vintage componentry and they look sweet too. I mean Grant Petersen and Rivendell and some of these clones are interesting - but a lot of us have been around long enough to have our own style and our own FRESH interpretation on what it means to be older and ride classic equipment. I'm 44 years old and I've been humbled on group rides many, many times. Sometime the execution of my vintage bikes exceeds expectations, other times you're dropped out the back like yesterday's effluent... . I know, you'll say its the rider, not the equipment, and of course there is truth to that. I doesn't tell the whole story though. I mean there are some older fellas that come out for some of our group rides who will say, This (fill in the name of some tired 1980's era road bike) is just as great as the day I got it! I mean, sometimes you need to take a good look at yourself and some of your pragmatic (i.e. inflexible) notions, and move on man.

Just had to share,
so go ahead, light up the flames!
This is going to be fun.

^^^^I just got myself a big bowl of popcorn, I can't wait for the show! BTW I have barcons on one bike and Nexus 8 w/ twist grip on my other road bike. One foot in the new, one foot in the old. I don't go to fast though , I am riding to work mostly so what 's the hurry?

I really like my Dura Ace 9 speed (indexed rear) barcons. And I just got some Suntour (friction) ratcheting barcons for another bike, can't wait to put them on. I like barcons for their simplicity, reliability, and old school feel. But I know they're not as ergonomic as brifters for fast, low-effort shifting (but they're better than downtube shifters in that way). I'm willing to live with that for what I feel are the benefits of barcons-

You've said that several time and I'm still not sure it means anything. What do barcons allow you to do that any other shifter location won't? I always thought "putting the hammer down" was done with your legs.

He's from A&S, where you aren't allowed to disagree

hey, they work for me, but I'm more of a "race the cars" than "wear jerseys while riding in a pack of fat guys" type of rider anyways.

Can I use this in my sig?

that'd be fine.

I am a retrogrouch. ALL my cycling shorts and jerseys are wool, all my saddles leather, all my rides are pimped with friction barcons.

Isn't this the 'classic and vintage' forum?

At the risk of drawing fire, I prefer the feel of barcons, in fricton or indexed modes to anything else, but being able to brake and downshift simutaneously for a tight turn or stop is a big advantage of STI/Ergo levers. Otherwise, friction is easier and cheaper to set up and maintain, and gives me more of a feeling of control being able to trim out any gear. Don't have to fine tune the derailleur settings as often, either. I don't believe either is faster enough to make a difference if the bike is set up properly.

It's this simple. It's fine to like what you like - I like friction downtube shifters. Having the controls right under your hands where you ride most of the time is bound to be fast, but unless one of you is Mercx and the other is Hinault it's unlikely that your chosen method of shifting is going to significantly affect your performance. I'd hate to see this forum descend into the kind of flaming that goes on in SS/FG when people disagree about track drops vs ergo drops, or whatever it might be. Let's play nicely!

You're right. This is the C & V forum, you got that right. I'm a little cranky this morning. Wish I was out riding actually.

Us classic and vintage folks are a mixed group. I love my vintage rides more than my new one. That doesn't mean the old ones work better.

I'm currently on a mission to have every vintage road bike in my stable have indexed shifting in one form or another. Its just better.

My apologies to hamr22 for sending the original querie into a ditch. Indirectly, I guess my reply to your original question would be: "Yes, bar-cons are slower than STI/Ergo".

We're all unique bundles of bias I suppose. I love down tube shift levers but prefer them to click.

I must admit I have never used bar-cons though I'm eager to try out a set of 7 speed SunTour Accushift bar-cons that I got new from ebay last year.

I ride conventional plastic shell saddles, never had the need to go Brooks. I love the Turbomatic, wish Selle Italia would bring back the Turbomatic II.

Haven't used wool shorts in years. I do have a new "retro" Canari wool blend jersey that's very comfortable.

Bekologist, you really are in the right place. Retrogrouches flourish here! As I said, I'm a little grouchy today, I'm probably the one that people should throw under the bus!

I like my indexed bar end shifters, but I'm not crazy about the cable routing. It looks goofy and is kind of annoying sometimes. Brifters are nice because you can brake and shift at the same time and you can shift from the hoods. I'm planning on doing some serious touring once my kids are a little older and will definitely use indexed bar ends. I'll want something indexed on the bars and I'll want something that can be used in friction mode in the event of a mechanical problem. The only thing that fits the bill is a nice set of indexed barcons.

I guess that doesn't answer the question but if the tenths of a second difference in the time it takes to shift barcons vs brifters is critical, the kind of riding you're talking about is way outside my level of experience.

I have them both. My Lemond has STI shifters and they are precise and convenient to use.
My Trek has friction bar end shifters and I like the simplicity and convenience of them as well. Different bikes and different uses. I like them both.

I do see a benefit in being able to keep one's hands on the bars during gear changes, but once you are used to a particular bike's geartrain, I see no real advantage whatsoever to indexing. Brifters are ergonomic when you have your hands on the brake hoods, but barcons get the edge when you are down on the drops, as I often am.

For me, the big attraction of a nonindexed system is that they are very economical, durable, and reliable, and they permit me to mix and match components in any way the spirit leads me.

I just watched a day full of crit racing last Saturday. All the riders were in the drops, and all had STI/Ergo shifters. If bar-ends had the edge in the drops, I'd expect to see those that had the most reason to get that edge, using them. They were not. In addition, my own experience tells me that STI is exceedingly convenient and easy to use in the drops, as I often am. We'll have to agree to have a gentleman's disagreement.

This is very, very true - and is, coupled with the artistry and simplicity, the big attraction for me to vintage bikes.

From my perspective bar end shifters are the economical winner. They allow you to cycle through the gears fast. They are more dependable for daily use than STI/Ergo. I recommend people continue buying barends to support the technology. I think most bikes priced under 1000$ should have barend shifters to save the consumer money and headache of upgrades. Modern index shifting is clearly superior in terms of delivery but it costs too damn much. I found that running Shimano Barcons in friction mode was much easier than the index. Keep pedalling and listen to the chain, with a tiny little twitches you will be able to find the sweet spot and have a pretty quiet drive train. You might be able to sprint better with the modern style shifter but if you use your gears properly you won't need to shift like a baby to maintain your cadence. Your pals on the ride still will not be able to ride like Eddy Merckx regardless of frame and shifters. Remember lots of racers used bar end shifters/downtube shifters/fixed gears back in the day. Keep your bike simple and it will reward you.

Then dealers would have a floor full of bikes that won't sell.

Barcons are all that you suggest - inexpensive, functional, uncomplicated, reliable. But they are a niche market, relatively speaking. STI/Ergo is more complicated and more expensive - but it is very efficient, easy to use, and very reliable, too.

I like my vintage bikes, and have three very nice ones with friction shifting. But for every day riding and especially long distances, the new stuff almost always gets the nod. It's too much better not to.

Sure, so are manual transmissions in automobiles. That doesn't keep the public from buying automatics almost universally. "Economical" isn't the controlling factor in most purchases.

Of course they did, there was nothing else available. Eddy Merckx used downtube shifters and so did all of his competitors as they had no alternative. You can be certain that if he were racing today, he'd use the absolute latest technology available. Today even amateur racers use STI/Ergo and they have to pay for their own equipment.

OK, my vintage bikes all have friction downtube shifters and my modern steel bike has sti. I had barcons on my 70s supersport until it went fixed. My bonafides stated, I'd like to make one point.

The one great advantage I find to STI is that I don't have to remove a hand from the bar while riding in a pack. hitting a pothole that you didn't see with one hand on the bars surrounded by a pack is a rare, but scary occurrence.

Does it make me faster? Not much, especially if we're outside of the city, but it does make me a little safer in the pack.

Paul