help with odd frame id
 

i posted this in the catch of the day thread, but am looking for more input. Someone brought up that it looks like this frame has been modified. not sure why anyone would do this, but it looks like the seatstays have been relocated lower and the chainstays bent downward to match.

the bike has sealed headset bearings, shimano 600 group, cinelli bars, look pedals, royal compe brakes

any help on an id would be great

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...n/DSC_3772.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...n/DSC_3767.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...n/DSC_3766.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...n/DSC_3765.jpg

thanks guys

I think it was built that way, as the seatstays have been bent an amount equal to the displacement of the chainstays, and it looks from the photos to be perfectly in alignment. The lugs are hand cut, and the seat junction is filet-brazed. This frame wasn't built by an amateur. The chainstay arrangement was intended to lower the back axle, and that must have had the effect of raising the bottom bracket; this would have allowed for a longer seat tube without raising the COG much. All a guess, of course, but you should take steps to save the frame from the encroaching rust. Are there any marks anywhere?

'course, it coulda been a builder just showing off, a la hetchins...

I agree that it's intended to look just like it does, and was built by a PRO, but who built it is the question. What is the BB threading? How about the seatpost diameter? My first guess is it's the product of an American or British builder, it HAD a headbadge, let's see a pic of that area...whatever it is, proceed with care as it may turn out to be something "special" as well as just "weird".
Edit: then again, it COULD be a modification, but it looks like a quality lugged bike in the front (great lugs) and high-quality fillet brazing in the rear, not amateur work...but possibly resprayed: note the blob/run on the headlug.

Curious, does the frame sit level if a front wheel is placed up front?

-Kurt

This has been bugging me too, can you pop a front wheel on there and snap a photo? It might also help jog someone's memory to see it as it would be ridden.

yep, i'll snap a few more pics tomorrow. one w/ the wheel on and one of where the logo was on the head tube.

My original thoughts were that the builder wanted a steep seat tube and rotated the bottom bracket forward, causing the stays to exit upward. THis would also lower the bottom bracket so curving the stays would maintain the ground clearance.

The lower mounting for the seat stays stiffens the bottom bracket and this was used on some time trial designs. This seemed a good fit with steep seat tube theory, until I noticed how long the chain stays were. And if the builder wanted to a steeper set tube, why didn't he just fillet braze it, like he did with the top/seat tube junction?

I'm also curious as to whther the top tube is sloping and whther it uses a smaller front wheel.

ok, here are more photos. the top tube doesnt sit level with the ground.... and also a shot of where the logo was on the head tube.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...n/DSC_3832.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...n/DSC_3842.jpg

Confirms my suspicions. Stays were removed from the seatlug, the rear triangle was bent down from the lower chainstays, and the stays were once again bent forward (causing that bend in the rear) to match up with the seattube again.

Note how the BB sits abnormally high.

-Kurt

This is probably what it used to look like before whoever did this odd job did so:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/Modified_frame.jpg

Note that I did NOT cut the stays down in length in the image editor to make them fit.

-Kurt

OK, that's all plausible...but what did it start life out as: what's the headbadge with 3 holes that would fit that spot and go with those lugs?

Not Raleigh, that's for sure. Those are Prugnat lugs with no additional styling added to them by the framebuilder. What does it look like under the BB?

-Kurt

Kurt - brilliant detective work - CSI Bike Forum.

CSI Bike Forum - *drumroll* - from the producers of...


...Numbskull Of The Day?

:roflmao:

-Kurt

so anybody have any idea what it is??

also, with the frame modified as it is, would there be any safety issues?

Not unless the excess bending (particularly at the dropout/seatstay juncture) has caused fractures in the tubing, and the seatpost is strong enough to hold together with the stays that low.

Considering the significant bending around the dropout/seatstay juncture, I would carefully check to see that the area hasn't developed any stress marks around there. If not, I'd say it'd probably hold up.

I'm finally going to be taking a whack at brazing sometime soon - this bike is screaming to me to be re-brazed up the way it was intended...too bad it ain't my size :lol:

-Kurt

so i think i've decided to make this one a fixed gear. Oh, and i checked under the bottom bracket....no markings. any more leads as to what this may be?

i know it was stated that this is definitely not a Raleigh, but the three holes look very close. dont they?

thanks for all the help/info guys!

Kinda like the triple triangle frame, but you know, with only two triangles.
This will make a kick-ass fixed gear.

Still stumps me...Prugnat lugs and the sloping forkcrown sort of says "British" to me, but there are so many possibilities even if that much is correct. (I still think the headlugs look "thinned" on the top)
I can't think of that many headbadges (other than Raleigh) that used 3 holes...most are 2-vertical or 2-horizontal. Kurt says "not a Raleigh", so until the former owner recognizes it and speaks up, I guess you have to search for a badge that fits those holes.

You know, you might want to check and see if a Raleigh badge DOES line up with those holes. Chances are, if someone had the talents to re-braze the rear end (and fillet braze the seatpost/toptube joint), they could have just as well harvested the headtube out of a tall frame Raleigh.

-Kurt

They do look thinned. That bike no longer has any bb drop whatsoever! It's a perfect track bike. :D

just found through a little paint that the BB is stamped H1886. does that look familiar to anyone?

raleigh serial # info from retro raleighs

1973: H, followed by four numerals

this fits my number

Not a single Raleigh model was ever produced with those Prugnat lugs.

-Kurt