I am purchasing a supposed Ciocc track frame from a friend and it has been repainted. I wanted to check the serial number with you fellow cyclists so I can confirm that it is a Ciocc and what it may have originally looked like. The number stamped on the BBshell is 91005201. All and any information would be much appreciated. The unusual part about the frame is that the lugs on the front tube are angled off instead of round, making a decagon like shape when you look down on it.
Thank you
-Dan

You've GOT to shoot some pics of this, I can barely visualize what you mean by "decagon shaped when you look down on it" but it sounds unusual for any frame, Ciocc or otherwise.

I've never seen a Ciocc that doesn't have pantographing on the seat-stays, it is pretty much a standard thing that they did. It could be different on their track models?

mine has Ciocc panto only on the BB shell cause the seat cluster is a semi fastback style...but it's a later model, late 80s early 90s maybe. This track frame seems to have some kind of shaped tubing, perhaps like Gilco used on Colnago and Tommasini. Pics are required.

pictures finally

My Ciocc and every other Ciocc I have ever seen has a clover-leaf cutout in the BB. Doesn't mean that this isn't a Ciocc but, like the pantographing they do on the seat-stays, it is a thing that Ciocc does. The lugs are really nice, that is a higher-end frame for sure, whatever the brand. No full shot of the frame?

The seat-stays look similar to this Ciocc Enemy:

ill get a full shot tonight when its all built up
the fork is undrilled, unpantographed and unlugged FYI.

OK, now I see what your talking about...I've seen similar lugs like that called "Nash" (brand or model name?). They are investment cast, but I don't know who makes them. I HAVE seen that I-C BB shell before, it might be Italian but I have seen it on things like a Scapin and DeBernardi, never (yet) on a Ciocc. BTW, the "Enemy" is a later-model Ciocc when the manufacturer is also associated with Concorde and Conti brands (see archives). Note the Italian flag braze-on (Concorde) and that it's part Tig-welded, part lugged. So, back to this BTKNYHC: is the BB Italian threaded, and what size seatpost? Unicrown fork? Round forkblades?

well the bikes been delayed due to a short fork needing a gripnut HS....
but here's something weird. the BB is english threaded not italian. and the fork is unicrowned. I hear that those 3 cuts in the BB are supposed to be the italian flag which is why its common on Italian bikes
I am thinking it may be a custom with columbus tubing (based on weight/sound). idk if its ciocc anymore...I wish there were an easy way to trace that serial number. Ill post full shots...whenever it ends up getting built.

I found the reference to "Nash Lugs", here's a catalog page:
https://www.framebuilding.com/Lugs%203.htm
seems like PSE (BSE?)is an Italian lugmaker, tho I'm not familiar with them...anybody care to shed some detailed info? And a BSC threaded BB shell is not unknown in an Italian bike of a certain age: Bianchi had switched over to BSC in their steel frames by '99-'00 era. Then they pretty much stopped using steel

unworthy great find!
I really appreciate your help.
What does 'investment cast' mean
Does anyone know any italian? frame builders who regularly use them or is this looking like a custom job?
I contacted ciocc and they said they had no record of such serial number...I am going to send them pictures today.

Here's a definition of investment casting:
https://www.efunda.com/processes/meta...st_casting.cfm