Sidepull brake evolution: Which are truly the best?
11-24-07 | 07:46 PM
#26
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Road Fan
11-24-07 | 08:17 PM
#27
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I didn't even know that Shimano got to 6207! I wonder if there was an incremental step change all the way in between; I'd only heard of 6200 and 6201, both SLR's before your letter.
Thanks for posting your experience and while it doesn't agree with mine, it is obviously a valid and carefully derived result.
Given what you describe, does it bode well for the Campy stuff that it requires that level of tuning to turn out a convincing performance? What cables do you use? All the brakes I tested had new metal ferrule ends on all cable junctions ($5 for a bottle of hundreds at Nashbar and worth every penny in terms of performance). I'm a touch excited to get the Campy SR's working better as I have them on at least 5 bikes (I really love the classic Italian stuff but don't ride those everyday because I like to keep them clean and pretty).
Thanks,
Danny
Thanks for posting your experience and while it doesn't agree with mine, it is obviously a valid and carefully derived result.
Given what you describe, does it bode well for the Campy stuff that it requires that level of tuning to turn out a convincing performance? What cables do you use? All the brakes I tested had new metal ferrule ends on all cable junctions ($5 for a bottle of hundreds at Nashbar and worth every penny in terms of performance). I'm a touch excited to get the Campy SR's working better as I have them on at least 5 bikes (I really love the classic Italian stuff but don't ride those everyday because I like to keep them clean and pretty).
Thanks,
Danny
I want to echo the Bravo, because I agree this is a very difficult comparison to make, and you've taken a very even-handed shot at doing this. Hats off to you, and kudos!
But I've worked intensively with 2 single-pivot brake systems in the past few years, my Shimano 600 6207-series (2 sets) and the famous Campy NR/SR systems (also 2 sets). After carefully rebuilding the calipers with new lubes, new RIGID cable sets with lined housings, fully dressed and ferruled housing ends, and relatively new original pads on each, I still think my 6207s require a lot more hand force both to stop and to modulate. I find the classic Campy's to work better in both respects. Perhaps after years of riding Weinman centerpulls and sidepulls I've build strong hands and trained my self to expect a hard squeeze, but I still think the 6207s are poor, well below the Campys. I've never owned a set of modern dual-pivots, so maybe my prejudices are not properly trained by the modern.
I think that both my sets of calipers had properly set pivot bolts, with no visible or feelable caliper play, when I clamp the brake and flex the fork by pushing the bike. The bikes were different, but both have pretty stiff forks. My Campy installations (on a Masi) use Campy levers and the Shimano (on a Trek 610) started with its original levers, then were changed to Modolo levers to interface properly with the Modolo housings and cables I switched to. Both calipers are medium length, with nutted mounts. But I found similar impressions with short calipers on a pair of different bikes. I replaced the Campy pads with Campy pads after all the fine-tuning, and that did not change teh brake's behavior.
On both bikes I use vintage anodized rims: MA40s on the Trek and Wolber tubular rims from circa 1980 on the Masi.
I made a big improvement in the Shimano with all the fine-tunign, and IMO made them acceptable. But I think they are still below the Campys.
??
Road Fan
I do not mean to be the apologist for Campy or the naysayer, just trying to describe my experiment and my assessment of the results.
I think my results are valid, and that Danny's results are valid. But what's different? I wish I knew!
Is it the cables? Too bad if so, it's one heck of a lot of work to "blueprint" the cables on every brake set.
But I've worked intensively with 2 single-pivot brake systems in the past few years, my Shimano 600 6207-series (2 sets) and the famous Campy NR/SR systems (also 2 sets). After carefully rebuilding the calipers with new lubes, new RIGID cable sets with lined housings, fully dressed and ferruled housing ends, and relatively new original pads on each, I still think my 6207s require a lot more hand force both to stop and to modulate. I find the classic Campy's to work better in both respects. Perhaps after years of riding Weinman centerpulls and sidepulls I've build strong hands and trained my self to expect a hard squeeze, but I still think the 6207s are poor, well below the Campys. I've never owned a set of modern dual-pivots, so maybe my prejudices are not properly trained by the modern.
I think that both my sets of calipers had properly set pivot bolts, with no visible or feelable caliper play, when I clamp the brake and flex the fork by pushing the bike. The bikes were different, but both have pretty stiff forks. My Campy installations (on a Masi) use Campy levers and the Shimano (on a Trek 610) started with its original levers, then were changed to Modolo levers to interface properly with the Modolo housings and cables I switched to. Both calipers are medium length, with nutted mounts. But I found similar impressions with short calipers on a pair of different bikes. I replaced the Campy pads with Campy pads after all the fine-tuning, and that did not change teh brake's behavior.
On both bikes I use vintage anodized rims: MA40s on the Trek and Wolber tubular rims from circa 1980 on the Masi.
I made a big improvement in the Shimano with all the fine-tunign, and IMO made them acceptable. But I think they are still below the Campys.
??
Road Fan
I do not mean to be the apologist for Campy or the naysayer, just trying to describe my experiment and my assessment of the results.
I think my results are valid, and that Danny's results are valid. But what's different? I wish I knew!
Is it the cables? Too bad if so, it's one heck of a lot of work to "blueprint" the cables on every brake set.
Last edited by dannyg1; 11-24-07 at 08:38 PM.
11-24-07 | 08:23 PM
#28
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One more thought: The Shimano 600 levers are all spring assisted, while most Campagnolo levers (All the SR/NR versions actually) aren't. While this only helps the caliper arms open up, it can hide a sticky or slighty binding pivot bolt from the unsuspecting user.
Regards,
Danny
Regards,
Danny
11-24-07 | 08:42 PM
#29
Pff....I wish I was so lucky to even have ridden brakes like these, man.
Unlike what seems like so many people on here, I don't have a constant flow of beautiful old Campy and Dura-Ace brakes coming to me.......I can only really offer opinion on the old sidepulls I get on generic 10-speeds.
They work ok. : )
Unlike what seems like so many people on here, I don't have a constant flow of beautiful old Campy and Dura-Ace brakes coming to me.......I can only really offer opinion on the old sidepulls I get on generic 10-speeds.
They work ok. : )
11-24-07 | 08:49 PM
#30
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Pff....I wish I was so lucky to even have ridden brakes like these, man.
Unlike what seems like so many people on here, I don't have a constant flow of beautiful old Campy and Dura-Ace brakes coming to me.......I can only really offer opinion on the old sidepulls I get on generic 10-speeds.
They work ok. : )
Unlike what seems like so many people on here, I don't have a constant flow of beautiful old Campy and Dura-Ace brakes coming to me.......I can only really offer opinion on the old sidepulls I get on generic 10-speeds.
They work ok. : )
Regards,
Danny
11-24-07 | 08:55 PM
#31
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>>> The 7402s get my vote for best single pivots, too. I really can't think of anthing to improve on them. Sounds like you had the same idea as Campagnolo with their combination of single-pivot rear & double-pivot front.
Yep. I was the differential brake setup years before Campy went there. It only makes sense of having more pad clearance at the back, and more power at the front.
The absolute best brake setup I've found: Dura Ace 7403 dual pivot on the front and single pivot 7402 on the back. Perfection.
Yep. I was the differential brake setup years before Campy went there. It only makes sense of having more pad clearance at the back, and more power at the front.
The absolute best brake setup I've found: Dura Ace 7403 dual pivot on the front and single pivot 7402 on the back. Perfection.
11-24-07 | 10:04 PM
#32
Spin Forest! Spin!
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,956
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From: Arrid Zone-a
Bikes: I used to have many. And I Will again.
"I want my $2.00!"
Ah, your post brought back a flood of images from my childhood. The fun we used to have exploring the neighborhoods on our banana-seated, coaster braked, cards in the spokes, freedom machines.
The only bad recollection was the day I did STOP from a crash. When I went from 1st to 3rd gear of my Shimano internal 3 spd hub, whacking the stick shift with my groin.
OUCH!
11-24-07 | 10:12 PM
#33
An important aspect that cannot be isolated today, it that OLD pads behave differently, and do not forget when in the wet.
Long ago there was an article in Bicycling! Mag about brake performance where the mechanical dimensions were used to predict performance, it was pretty easy to see that short reach calipers would always produce better numbers than "normal" reach.
I put all vintage sidepull calipers in about same category, it was the performance of "modern" precision dual pivots, the old CLB was the right idea, just poorly executed.
Don't forget Gran Compe centerpulls with the ball bearing pivots, if campagnolo had made a traditional center pull that would have been it.
11-24-07 | 10:20 PM
#34
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On the centerpulls: Aren't the GC ball bearing centerpulls a direct copy of the top end Mafacs? They even copied the shape of the tire guides.
Regards,
Danny
11-24-07 | 10:35 PM
#35
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From: New Mexico, USA
Bikes: 19 road bikes & 1 Track bike
... my Retro-Grouch digression (feel free to ignore):
Shimano in their obsessive "refining" of components from year to year began to be a real pain in the butt. Heaven forbid you should lose perhaps the little sleeve from the return spring from last years model, no way you could find a replacement part, especially one to fit precisely, maybe close... but no cigar. Very frustrating. This era, for all the advances for which I will gladly extend Shimano credit, was the start of a nightmare for consumers and for mechanics. It built a reputation in some circles for dismissing Shimano components as simply un-rebuildable and expensive throw-away components. If something broke, just replace the whole unit. Of course this was VERY bad for retail customer relations with bike shops when the consumer percieved they were just being dismissed or ripped off by the local shop - rather than the real culprit [Shimano: the Evil Empire bent on world domination], who did not even have a supply stream set up for their small unique and indispensible little replacement parts.
Outrageous really. Imagine going into car dealer or an auto service station for new brake pads because your brakes aren't working quite right, and being told "Sorry sir, there is a tiny bolt on your right disk brake caliper which has broken, there are no replacement parts for it, and they are a size only made by this brake manufacturer... so you'll have to just buy an entire new disk brake caliper set... oh, and yes, they only come in pairs." - The $30 brake pad job is suddenly $500. This would make me never want to buy a Chevy or whatever Marque again. And yet, this was accepted in bike circles, and the big bike manufacturers who could have resisted this trend never balked at the OEM supplier over this insanity.
Yep, an early rude welcome to the reality of modern technological Hell. _ This still makes many of us relics glaze over with nostalgia at the thought of once EASILY completely rebuildable Campy NR/SR components... and the small parts you could simply pull right from the drawers of your Campy supplied parts cabinet. [Perhaps I'm the only one old enough to remember those] ___ Aah, the golden years...
Gee, no wonder I still love my primitive yet effective old center-pulls brake sets.
Outrageous really. Imagine going into car dealer or an auto service station for new brake pads because your brakes aren't working quite right, and being told "Sorry sir, there is a tiny bolt on your right disk brake caliper which has broken, there are no replacement parts for it, and they are a size only made by this brake manufacturer... so you'll have to just buy an entire new disk brake caliper set... oh, and yes, they only come in pairs." - The $30 brake pad job is suddenly $500. This would make me never want to buy a Chevy or whatever Marque again. And yet, this was accepted in bike circles, and the big bike manufacturers who could have resisted this trend never balked at the OEM supplier over this insanity.
Yep, an early rude welcome to the reality of modern technological Hell. _ This still makes many of us relics glaze over with nostalgia at the thought of once EASILY completely rebuildable Campy NR/SR components... and the small parts you could simply pull right from the drawers of your Campy supplied parts cabinet. [Perhaps I'm the only one old enough to remember those] ___ Aah, the golden years...
Gee, no wonder I still love my primitive yet effective old center-pulls brake sets.
11-25-07 | 08:57 AM
#36
[INDENT]Shimano in their obsessive "refining" of components from year to year began to be a real pain in the butt. Heaven forbid you should lose perhaps the little sleeve from the return spring from last years model, no way you could find a replacement part, especially one to fit precisely, maybe close... but no cigar. Very frustrating. This era, for all the advances for which I will gladly extend Shimano credit, was the start of a nightmare for consumers and for mechanics. It built a reputation in some circles for dismissing Shimano components as simply un-rebuildable and expensive throw-away components. If something broke, just replace the whole unit. Of course this was VERY bad for retail customer relations with bike shops when the consumer percieved they were just being dismissed or ripped off by the local shop - rather than the real culprit [Shimano: the Evil Empire bent on world domination], who did not even have a supply stream set up for their small unique and indispensible little replacement parts.
From Shimano's view, it was almost perfect. I would equate them with the Borg.
Outrageous really. Imagine going into car dealer or an auto service station for new brake pads because your brakes aren't working quite right, and being told "Sorry sir, there is a tiny bolt on your right disk brake caliper which has broken, there are no replacement parts for it, and they are a size only made by this brake manufacturer... so you'll have to just buy an entire new disk brake caliper set... oh, and yes, they only come in pairs." - The $30 brake pad job is suddenly $500. This would make me never want to buy a Chevy or whatever Marque again. And yet, this was accepted in bike circles, and the big bike manufacturers who could have resisted this trend never balked at the OEM supplier over this insanity.
I can give you a real analogy, Ford Thunderbird SuperCoupe, engine management ECU is fragile and now unobtanium, Ford still lists it as a part # but its been on National backorder for Years, leaves car in "limp home mode" and the car will not pass smog check. Think Ford is sending a message?
Yep, an early rude welcome to the reality of modern technological Hell. _ This still makes many of us relics glaze over with nostalgia at the thought of once EASILY completely rebuildable Campy NR/SR components... and the small parts you could simply pull right from the drawers of your Campy supplied parts cabinet. [Perhaps I'm the only one old enough to remember those] ___ Aah, the golden years...
Gee, no wonder I still love my primitive yet effective old center-pulls brake sets.
The Gran Compe's were the perfect Mafac centerpull, and no screaming when applied.
From Shimano's view, it was almost perfect. I would equate them with the Borg.
Outrageous really. Imagine going into car dealer or an auto service station for new brake pads because your brakes aren't working quite right, and being told "Sorry sir, there is a tiny bolt on your right disk brake caliper which has broken, there are no replacement parts for it, and they are a size only made by this brake manufacturer... so you'll have to just buy an entire new disk brake caliper set... oh, and yes, they only come in pairs." - The $30 brake pad job is suddenly $500. This would make me never want to buy a Chevy or whatever Marque again. And yet, this was accepted in bike circles, and the big bike manufacturers who could have resisted this trend never balked at the OEM supplier over this insanity.
I can give you a real analogy, Ford Thunderbird SuperCoupe, engine management ECU is fragile and now unobtanium, Ford still lists it as a part # but its been on National backorder for Years, leaves car in "limp home mode" and the car will not pass smog check. Think Ford is sending a message?
Yep, an early rude welcome to the reality of modern technological Hell. _ This still makes many of us relics glaze over with nostalgia at the thought of once EASILY completely rebuildable Campy NR/SR components... and the small parts you could simply pull right from the drawers of your Campy supplied parts cabinet. [Perhaps I'm the only one old enough to remember those] ___ Aah, the golden years...
Gee, no wonder I still love my primitive yet effective old center-pulls brake sets.
The Gran Compe's were the perfect Mafac centerpull, and no screaming when applied.
