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ID-Lugged, Schwinn mtb frame

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ID-Lugged, Schwinn mtb frame

Old 01-20-13, 12:48 PM
  #51  
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The bags are nearly done. I am making a separate thread here.
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Old 03-13-13, 02:16 PM
  #52  
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I like. Quick question: I noticed your bike has rear fender and rack, did your frame have double rear eyelets? Or did you have them brazed on? I ask because I have an '84 high sierra I'm working on and it has double front eyelets, but single rear.
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Old 03-14-13, 07:10 AM
  #53  
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Thanks.

My frame has single eyelets both front and rear. The fenders and racks are mounted in the same place using longer bolts and washers/spacers as needed.
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Old 03-14-13, 07:24 AM
  #54  
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For those interested and for the sake of completeness, here is a separate thread describing parts of my lights and generator system.
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Old 11-15-14, 07:58 PM
  #55  
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Hi
I have been searching for information about a Schwinn frame I have just obtained, similar if not the same as yours, but dating from February 1981. Have you been able to find out more about the history of the type
Regards
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Old 11-15-14, 08:03 PM
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Everything I know about the frame is in this thread. Post pictures. Let's see what you have. How did you date it to February 1981?
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Old 11-17-14, 12:26 AM
  #57  
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Hi
Firstly I have the bike on the way to me much as you did a few years back. It is frame number bs 367823 ( bs= February 1981 your bike with cs represents March 1981). This is according to 2 web pages THE SCHWINN DATE CODES BY YEAR,MONTH AND DAY and Schwinn serial number lookup tool just put in your number.
Another page I came across is alternative schwinn atb view.... - Page 2- Mtbr.com near the bottom of the page is a comment # 31 by Haaki in which described a frame set sold in 1981 by Schwinn that sounds similar to what we have. This was a frame set only. No idea of numbers etc. made. I will register on the MTBR forum page and make contact this week. I will also sort out loading photos I have
Crumbling
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Old 11-17-14, 06:35 AM
  #58  
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I liked the one loooooong post that stated, "Schwinn should have introduced the world to mountain bikes." It's a nice thought, but it didn't happen. Many others were already were already building them by the time they jumped on the bandwagon.,,,,BD
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Old 11-23-14, 02:41 PM
  #59  
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I would like my frame to as early as 1981. It's interesting that Haaki mentions the Richtey style fork in '81-82. The fork is why I bought the frame for this project. I used the same date code sites back when I was building the bike. One reason I was suspicious of the SN being Schwinn was that it is on the BB shell, not the head tube.

Years ago, I asked about the frame on MTBR. At the time no one cared about it if it wasn't an MB-1 or early Richtey. I would like to think the mountain bike crowd has started to care more about its past by now.

Its good to see you digging into the history of your frame. I hope to learn more about mine from yours.

Last edited by jjvw; 11-23-14 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 12-10-14, 02:02 AM
  #60  
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jjvw
Been a little delay getting back, sorting out photos and some notes, here are the photos and you will see the similarity


Here are my research notes

There is scant and conflicting information on these frames.
Other Forum pages and information I have referred to are,

http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/anybody-able-id-schwinn-frameset-69338.html

http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/alternative-schwinn-atb-view-226379-2.html

To start with
The frames appear to having been sold only as a frame/fork item as a parts item.

On Pg 147 of Schwinn Bicycles by Jay Pridmore, Jim Hurd

"The Schwinn Parts Division brought in some lugged mountain bike frames from Japan."

Further information on this would be good to receive as it would be of interest to know who the Japanese building company it was and how many of the frames where imported and sold. Given the date of my frame this action by Schwinn could have been earlier in 1980 given time and delivery. As I see, at the time in history, I am sure the Schwinn organisation would have been in some turmoil and certainty of supply could have been in doubt. There appears there could also some lack of a coordinated management plan on the view taken on the mountain bike future. In 1981 and 1983 Schwinn where not referring to a Mountain Bike at all in there catalogues, referring to the King Sting 5 in the Cruisers and Middleweights category.

MY FRAME

My frame, BS367823, is of lugged fabrication, including the forks, the same as frame CS472494. shown above. I have measured the frame angles and they are comparing to the Ritchey angles to be similar. I have measured the frame and the top tube is 23 ½” long, the head angle is 70 degree and the seat tube angle is 69 degree. Weight, frame with BB and axle 3082g and forks 1208g.

The frame WAK232071as shown on the forum page http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/anybody-able-id-schwinn-frameset-69338.html
Is different in that it is not lugged and has BMX style forks. The rear brake cable guide is similar to my frame. I think they are both from the same Japanese builder.
A photo of the other WAK232071 bike style appears in the Schwinn BMX catalogue dated 1983, but is of the BMX fork type, this could be a second type made. I am not certain the frame of 1981 and the frame of 1983 (as detail cannot be determined from the photo but I think it is a welded type) are the same although they appear to be similar. I think the frame of 1981 was built with lugged crown and the 1983 was a uni-crown development welded frame.
I have seen a forum comment that the fork was referred to as a uni-crown (BMX origin) that had failure issues and were replaced with a conventional lugged fork. Later builds had the lugged construction. This may confuse the time line.
There is reference to the frame being of Japanese fabrication, my frame has named Shimano cable guides on the bottom bracket and nothing else is named, except the steerer tube has Ishiwata 3.B stamped into it. I have tried to find the meaning of this lettering, not found.
Steerer tube 21.15 (BMX) as yours.
The head stem bracket has a SCHWINN CHICAGO badge riveted onto it with no serial number.
An old well weathered CROMOLY 4130 SCHWINN TUBING sticker at the bottom of the seat stem.
There are remnants of a down tube sticker glue line each side that could be an outline of the Schwinn feather type decal. A faint image appears in the 1983 Schwinn catalogue.
Fading of the paint on the seat tube outlines indicate other banded stickers.
The frame number is stamped into the underside of the bottom bracket beginning with BS (February 1981) the same as your frame but CS (April 1981) and are not the regular place for 1981 Chicago built Schwinn bikes. The number WAK232071 is not found in the Schwinn number systems.
The colour is a light metallic silver blue of my frame.
I will build this frame an early period mountain bike build style and with 1981 period componentry as outlined in the Old Mountain Bike web page. I consider the frame could have been purchased and fitted out as this way in 1981.
This information has been easily found but a bit difficult to put a time line on until I found the page on WAK232071. This indicates Schwinn was selling these frames for 3 years but the numbers are not known.
As a piece of mountain bike history I think they are a bit overlooked, but certainly fit in with the early 1981 period before other big manufacturers got underway with mass Asian imports.

Crumbling
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Old 12-10-14, 07:22 AM
  #61  
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This is one of those threads that will become THE repository for future knowledge about these bikes.

Good luck in figuring out more of the history- and thank you for posting what you've learned and figured out.

Cool looking frame and really cool fork crown!
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Old 12-10-14, 07:30 AM
  #62  
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This is great information. Your frame is a match to mine and is the only other one I've seen. Thanks for taking the time to fill in more of the gaps!
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Old 12-11-14, 12:33 AM
  #63  
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Thanks for the comments.
My frame had been advertised as a King Sting? With doubts as to its history. The Schwinn general catalogues do not include them. I hope this information I have added brings others frames to light or memories to be stirred, particularly from ex Schwinn staff or records
I find it interesting to read the 1980 and 1981 timeline on the Mombat Timeline pages ( a great source of information) but they does not mention these frames and have not been listed (probably due to rarity, also they where only sold as frames, I may have missed them if they are mentioned).
They say Schwinn made MTB`s, in particular the King Sting and King Sting 5, when in the Schwinn catalogues respective do not include MTB`s as a cycle type made, only Cruisers. The general cycling fraternity may have seen them as an MTB. Where I live we did not see MTB`s until the mddle 1980`s.
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Old 12-11-14, 06:21 AM
  #64  
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No idea what model Schwinn that is.

The build looks great so far!
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Old 12-12-14, 09:27 PM
  #65  
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I have had comments stating the forks are Tange and must be at least be 1983 and do not predate Trek bikes (on another Forum page alternative schwinn atb view.... - Page 2- Mtbr.com).
My forks are stamped Ishiwata 3.B. Looking at 1983 Trek stamping identification the 3.B would indicate 1983 February but I do not know the meaning of the Ishiwata code, could be the same. I have seen another forum page where Tange 8.C is recorded. Thus these forks could be Tange 1988 March. The forks are not photographed but the person posting the inquiry agrees they are the same as jjvw`s forks and could be replacement stock. The plot does thicken.
Are the forks on jjw`s and mine the replacement type and the other Uni type be the original as on Terminaut`s bike, the type that cracked.
Referred to on htp://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/anybody-able-id-schwinn-frameset-69338.html .
jjvw, do you have the steerer tube stamping recorded, name, number and letter.
I'm crumbling
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Old 12-13-14, 12:16 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by crumbling View Post
...
jjvw, do you have the steerer tube stamping recorded, name, number and letter.
I'm crumbling
Can't remember if there were any markings or not. I would think that if there were I would have posted the information back when I got the frame, but I will pull the fork off the frame to find out. Be patient and it will happen.
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Old 12-13-14, 12:28 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by RandolphCarter View Post
No idea what model Schwinn that is.

The build looks great so far!
Thanks. I see that I never posted pics of the finished bike in this thread. Here.






The only significant thing I would like to change is to switch the Paul Thumbie to Velo Orange's polished aluminum version, but that would require stripping the handle bars. Then there is the issue of the front wheel flopping over while parked. I have most of the parts to build an aesthetically pleasing spring tensioned steering stabilizer. There are a couple little areas with the cable and wire routings that I should clean up, but that is all very low in my priorites. If anyone is interested in the bags and lighting system, there are links to both further back.

Last edited by jjvw; 12-13-14 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 12-13-14, 08:02 PM
  #68  
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Cool, certainly catch the eye when cruising. I pity to dismantle the head set to view the steerer tube
Regards
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Old 12-19-14, 02:29 PM
  #69  
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This part I have placed on another forum discussing Ishiwata tubing although I have added a little.

My search has moved on having come across in a forum other notes regarding Ishiwata tubing.
Of great interest is the Ishiwata tubing catalogues 1979 and 1980 versions.
These catalogues can be found on Index of /bike/ishiwata

The 5 pages of the 1979 catalogue, although small, contains 1 page that is of great help and confidence to this search. This is the MTB frame page 5, containing all the tubing used to build my frame as an MTB.
All tubing is O/S, top tube 28.6mm, down tube 31.8mm, seat tube 31.6mm and head tube 33mm. The fork blades are 30.6 x20 x13mm. The only confirmation to find is what type of Ishiwata tubing is used being either M.T.B-D CROMO, M.T.B.-C CROMO+HT or M.T.B.-V MAGNY+HT. When the frame is stripped for a repaint I will have a good look for identification stamps/markings. I have removed the Schwinn head badge to check if any other number exists under it and nothing was found. My frame has a Schwinn sticker saying the tubing is made by Schwinn, I dont think so.

The catalogue does not contain details of lugs or other brackets etc. The exact date of the catalogue would help greatly, after 1979 this tubing could have sat in storage for use into the `80`s but it does show an interest by Ishiwata in the supply designated MTB tubing. There is also a page dedicated to BMX frames, thus the opportunity for a BMX style forks to be developed for MTB use by Ishiwata. The Ishiwata MTB CROMO stickers are available on Ebay

Still, I do not know if Ishwata built up frames or just sold the tubing. The maker of the lugs has not come to light except the Fork Crown that could possibly be Tange, I accept it is.
The lugs have to had been purpose made for the 70 degree angles used for MTB as opposed to around 73 degree for road bikes.

The 1980 catalogue version is not dated exactly either. This version is some 38 small pages long but does not include an MTB tubing section and any of the tube sizes do not match that of the 1979 catalogue MTB frames. The catalogue contains a lot more detail of lugs, brackets and fork crowns. In particular the fork crowns do not match the type used on my frame, as I have said before it is very close to the Tange type. Lugs shown in the catalogue are angled at 73 degree indicating for use with road bikes.

The next task is to get to understand all the serial numbering and particularly the locations on the frames.

crumbling.
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Old 12-29-14, 08:49 PM
  #70  
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Hi A thought came to me as I ate my Christmas cake
The Ishiwata ID on the Steerer tube is 3.B. (Tange use an ID system that is similar but 3 B would mean 1983 February.) Thus the Ishiwata dating, if the same, would make this a 1983 + bike build. As this tubing is shown in a pre 1979 catalogue and not in the 1980 catalogue, the date should be regarded as pre 1979, unless Ishiwata used the Japanese Imperial dating for the year. ie a year 3 on the Imperial calender would be a year 8 on the Julian calender, 1978
Does anybody know for certain the dating system Ishiwata used.
As the date is recorded with the Ishiwata name, this also indicates the date of manufacture of the tubing, not necessarily of the frame build. I cannot find reference to Ishiwata building frames and I think the 3.B represents Ishiwhata`s last involvement .


Now,
I have been searching for cycle manufacturers who built with Ishiwata tubing in the early 1980s, the location of their serial numbers and the format of the numbers. This is to determine a link the a frame builder who had a similarity in numbering. Schwinn used Giant and the numbering format reflect this association and is generally explained. The result is as below but this could be easily added to,
Trek On BB shell 1980 Format LNLNLNN Schwinn MTB`s BS367823 & CS472494 do not fit this Trek SN format

Fuji On BB shell 1970 to 1990 LLNNN 1st letter K,F,M,S,J,or G 2nd letter A to L representing January to February and 3 numbers follow.
Schwinn MTB`sBS367823 & CS472494 do not fit this Fugi SN format

Ross On
BB shell is: one number referred to I058910709. No format found. Schwinn MTB BS367823 & CS472494 do not fit this Ross SN format nor does the Ross number fit the Schwinn system
Bianchi On BB shell one number shown
IS513786 Bianchi does not fit the Schwinn system

Bridgestone One shown number
4F24762 This number does not fit the Schwinn system nor do numbers Schwinn

MTB numbers BS367823 & CS472494 I have not found a discription of a format.



Nishiki On BB shell similar to the Fuji format 1970 to 1990 LLNNN 1st letter K,F,M,S,J,or G 2nd letter A to L representing January to February and 3 numbers follow. Schwinn MTB`sBS367823 & CS472494 do not fit this Nishiki SN format

Norco On BB Shell and the same system as Nishiki system


Maruishi
On BB Shell and the same system as Nishiki system

Puegeot, Canyon Express Mtn. Bike Various locations ? around BB at bottom of seat tube Numbering system does not match
numbers BS367823 & CS472494 nor fit the Puegeot system

Miyata , Around the BB LNNNNNN The first letter represents the year starting from A (1972) Z (1997) There appe
ars to be some variation to this with LL and NN appearing at the beginning, no connection to the Schwinn numbers BS367823 & CS472494
Kuwahara,
Along BB shell 1980 to ? NNNN NNNNN Schwinn numbers BS367823 & CS472494 do not fit this Kuwahara SN format

Miele Along the BB LNNNNNNNN
Schwinn numbers BS367823 & CS472494 do not fit this Miele SN format

Benotto, On the BB N-NN-NN N-NNNN Not as Schwinn
BS367823 & CS472494


3 rensho
On the bb stamp is in #Axxx-yyy format, where xxx is production batch period and yyy is the bike size in mm This number does not fit the Schwinn system nor do numbers BS367823 & CS472494 fit the 3resho sytem.

There could be other manufacturers who used Ishiwata tubing, I am sure there is.



I cannot see any one of these manufacturers numbering systems are the same as BS367823 & CS472494 with the same meaning for month and year nor can BS367823 & CS472494 be transferred to to any one of them. I still think the Serial numbers were added by Schwinn Chicago

I have a few questions to answered and avenues to follow so a conclusion is open at present,

Crumbling

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Old 02-02-15, 03:34 PM
  #71  
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Crumbling,

a serial number format that matches the OPs and your bicycle is that of Japanese made Bianchis, from the 1980s.

In the Bianchi format the first number (the third character) indicates the year that the frame was made.
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Old 02-20-15, 05:48 AM
  #72  
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Ebay has been producing some new specimens lately.
First is a smoked pearl/lugged/tange style fork crown unit.
Appears to be how it was built in the 80s.

Vintage Schwinn Mountain Speed Bicycle Bike 19 5" Frame 26" Araya Rims Beautiful | eBay

The second one does not have quite as good a picture. Tig welded it appears, with the bmx style fork.
Seller claimed to be the original owner and bike is how he built it in early '83
WAK serial number


@crumbling @jjvw
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Old 02-20-15, 02:16 PM
  #73  
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Sanyo BB generator. I installed a bunch of these in the '80s and then did the Soubitez BB ones when they came along. I have a Sanyo on my Paramount and a Soubitez on my Cimarron build.

You can see the Sanyo on this one, hanging on a bracket just behind the chainrings.


Soubitez on this one, mounted on the brake bridge instead of near the BB.
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Last edited by thumpism; 02-20-15 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 02-20-15, 04:26 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by 4funbikes View Post
Ebay has been producing some new specimens lately.
First is a smoked pearl/lugged/tange style fork crown unit.
Appears to be how it was built in the 80s.

Vintage Schwinn Mountain Speed Bicycle Bike 19 5" Frame 26" Araya Rims Beautiful | eBay

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@crumbling @jjvw
$6450?! If I recall, I paid about $100 for my frame. Now I consider it priceless.

The different downtube decal is interesting. It is more appropriate to the bike that the fancy script mine originally came with.
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Old 02-20-15, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by thumpism View Post
Sanyo BB generator. I installed a bunch of these in the '80s and then did the Soubitez BB ones when they came along. I have a Sanyo on my Paramount and a Soubitez on my Cimarron build.

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The Sanyo BB generator is an odd piece to have. It slips a bit. I like having the lever control on the top tube. I eventually found an original upper clamp piece to replace the washer in my pictures.

Last edited by jjvw; 02-20-15 at 04:47 PM.
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