slowerplease

My second query for the night:

I picked up this bike at an LBS recently for 75 bucks. It is a dog's breakfast but appears to have been put together by someone who had eclectic tastes but knew about bikes: Dura-Ace headset, Deore LX cranks, Arabesque shifters, 105/Wolber front wheel, hi-rise handlebars, etc, and a nasty paint job.

My question is about the frame. It has an Apollo headbadge but the lugwork is nicer than any Apollo I have ever seen, with diamond cutouts on the lugs and the seatstays nicely wrapping up around the seatpost lug. It has forged vertical dropouts, some chroming is visible under the paint (I think the green paint is original, the black/pink not so much), cable routing over the BB. S/N is M7A00522. The geometry appears fairly slack with quite a bit of room between the rear wheel and seat tube, even with a knobby 28x1.3 tire on the back.

Any ideas on model or date? Any chance it's not an Apollo? Your insights are appreciated. Apologies for the quality of the third pic.

Torchy McFlux

Yes, it's a Kuwahara-built Apollo. The headset, shifters and brake calipers are probably the originals, which would date it around 1982. The high-end Apollo from around that time was called the Custom Sport, I think. It was made with thin and light Ishiwata steel tubing. The green paint is original, and it was common for high-end Apollos to have chroming on the frame and fork.
The guy who owned that bike before you did not know his stuff. It's a random abused mess. I hope you're going to clean it up and do it right.

Antipodes

There is nothing to my eyes that suggests that the bike is an Apollo. Kuwahara-built Apollo frames always have serial numbers starting with two digits (the year) followed by another string of numbers, stamped into the left side of the lower part of the seat tube.
The lugwork and seat stays don't look like they belong to any Apollo that I've ever seen either.
Judging by the overall appearance of the bike and the absence of brake housing stops on the top tube, I'd say the frame is from the early late '70s - early 1980s.
Furthermore, I think that the Custom Sport was more of a mid-range model.
Earlier models from roughly late '70s to 1982ish used Tange Champion tubing, typically numbers 2 and 5, with Kuwahara-branded or Shimano forged dropouts, fork ends and usually had half-chromed forks and rear triangles and Kuwahara-branded headsets. The Imperial and Gran Sport were the top two in the line from this period. Later on, top 1982 - mid 1980s models, such as the Club Sport, Triathlon and Gran Touriste used Ishiwata, such as EX quad-butted on the latter, typically with no chroming visible.
There is a chance that the bike is an Apollo from that period not built by Kuwahara, though I'm yet to see one. I can't explain the headbadge - I don't know why anyone would bother putting it on if it wasn't an Apollo!
More pics of the bottom bracket, head tube lugwork, rear and front dropouts would be great.
T-Mar may be able to recognise the serial number format - drop him a PM.

slowerplease

Here are some more pics - seatstay bridge with that nice little diamond-shaped flange or whatever; bottom bracket and another shot of the head tube.

I checked the rear dropouts and they say "Shimano SFR". Seatpost is a 26.8

ozneddy

That looks too good to be an Apollo !

Antipodes

After viewing your photos, I still stand by my assessment of it not being an Apollo. Furthermore, I've never seen an Apollo with Shimano SFR dropouts. Whilst a 26.8 seatpost is consistent with a double butted chromoly tubeset, many Japanese manufacturers' bikes have this very diameter - Miyata, Panasonic, Fuji, Nishiki, Centurion to name but a few.
Maybe someone else can identify the make from the closeups. Did you contact T-Mar about the serial number? After looking at the number again, it seems to possibly fit one of Fuji's formats for serial numbers from the period. Check out the Fuji serial number database thread.
Any Fuji experts willing to confirm or deny it being so? Japanese bike nuts please respond!

unworthy1

those diamond piercings in the lugs are consistant with Miyata and Univegas-built-by-Miyata, FWIW

slowerplease

T-Mar has opined the serial numbers etc could indicate a frame made by Merida in 1977. The headbadge is riveted on and looks original to me. Not really sure what else I can do to move this along but I'll have a look for the Fuji SN thread and wait to see what other knowledge pops up. Now I'm all interested and stuff!

Antipodes

Really? My Miyata (1981 1000) and others I've seen have a kind of "M" cut out in the lugs - I haven't seen any with the diamond. Do you know what models/years have this? Additionally the serial number doesn't seem to fit Miyata's format, though it could be a very old one that pre-dates the XYYYYY (letter followed by numbers) that commonly appear on the 1980s and 1990s models.
If we go by T-Mar's assessment of it being a 1977 Merida-built bike, perhaps Merida built for Apollo before Kuwahara, or at the same time, though like I said, every Apollo from the period that I've seen was built by Kuwahara, including the 1976 MK IV model I once had. The only exception to this is the early 1980s Concourse model, which was built in Hong Kong, though by what company I don't know. It definitely isn't a Concourse though - the details are different.

terrors

man if that is original paint as stated by Torchy it has to be the worst factory paint job i have every seen! it looks like the green on the lugs and crown was brushed on over white paint. Like antipodes i have never seen an apollo with wrapped seat stays or cut out lugs like that miyata as well. 'nother mystery bike i quess. BTW as i recall the top of the line Apollo Imperial had all dura-ace and black anodized i believe.

Antipodes

Okay, thanks. I noticed your Univega has a triple butted sticker, so I assume it's a Miyata-built frame. My 1981 1000 has the M cutout, but not the diamond. For all I know my girlfriend's 1986 1000 probably has the diamond, but I've never noticed it. I'll check tonight.

slowerplease

When I took the pics at night I thought it the green was original, the next day I realized my error. I now think there is just a bit of original paint showing around the headbadge (black). In retrospect it doesn't make any sense that the green would be original since it is (mostly) located over the chrome (a few chips here and there make this obvious). Would like to get the bike stripped and start poking around with it, but I've got tooo many projects on the go right now... picked up three old cruisers and a frame in the last week alone that I've got to turn around...

I was in a bike shop this afternoon that deals in Kuwaharas, mentioned the bike to the proprietor and he said to drop in with it one day. Since it is rideable I might take it for a spin over there and see if he has any insight, he seemed to know a bit about the old Apollos.

cyclotoine

The only reason I can see someone putting an apollo badge on there (which would be very easy to do with a rivit gun and a drill) would be that they are, admittedly, pretty cool.

As antipodes stated it could be that in the late 70s when demand was high a few frames came into Canada from someone other than Kuwahara and were branded apollo, there will always be anomalies, you might have one.

slowerplease

Well, maybe not... the frame origin question is still somewhat up in the air I suppose. But yesterday I found an identical Apollo frame in near original condition at a local bike shop. The proprietor had cycled around Europe on it in the late 70s or early 80s; her version came with Dura-Ace and the model was either the Mark V or Mark VI... I'm guessing the V came with 600, the VI with DA? Also the tubing I was told is Ishiwata. Here are a couple of the terrible pics I shot with my cell phone camera, intended to show the lugwork.

The owner was very kind and showed me several other beautiful time capsule bikes the store had hanging around; my bike is now dismantled but I'll be going back when the resto starts...

capatin

I don't know if this will help or hinder things. I have two 1981 Kuwahara BMXs (one frame still has original Kuwahara stickers but they have worn off the other) in Australia. The serial numbers on both begin with M1F followed by 5 numbers which is in line with stabdard Kuwahara BMX serial numbers at the time, except that they don't begin with K (Kuwahara built) or T (Tange built). I don't know what the M represents.
The odd thing is that they are both fully lugged CrMo frames rather than welded as was standard for the Kuwahara and Tange made frames. For example, if you look at the dropouts they are identical to the Apollo lugged dropouts yet have the double gussetting and serial number positioning of the KZ-1 frames (very different to Apollo).
Now, I have two of them, yet cannot find a single picture on the internet that look the same as my frames. Is it possible that Apollo made an Australia-only Pro BMX frame for Kuwahara to look like the KZ-1 only using their own lugged technology?

Little Darwin

I have a friend's Apollo at home, and if anyone is still interested, I will do some looking to compare.

However, coincidentally, I did just look at it yesterday, and the seat stays do wrap similarly to what you have... that is the only feature I recall off hand.

The other element I recall from when I looked at the bike a few months ago is that it is the only bike I ever remember seeing with Double Butted HiTen steel tubing.

RobbieTunes

Check it against a Soma, also Kuwahara-built. Mine had chrome fork legs, chrome dropouts branded Kuwahara, and chrome stays. Lugged but no cutouts, Arabesque group, Kuwahara headset, if that helps.