So, here's the question: Are Waterfords vintage? We all consider Waterford built Paramounts vintage. So, are the early, post Paramount, Waterfords vintage or modern? Visually, a Waterford looks just like any Seventies or Eighties lugged steel road bike. My 1995 looks very vintage. It has a parallel, non sloping, top tube and lugs.

I would say not vintage but they are classic.

I would have to agree. The earlier ones look a lot like Paramounts. The newer ones seem to have more of a sloping TT.

I know what you're saying, I recently traded for a lugged steel Pinarello Vuelta, and before I did a little research I assumed it was somewhat older than it apparently is. It seems that it's likely a 1996 model.

Horizontal top tube, beautiful lugs, quill stem, pantographing, etc. A beautiful Italian bike in the classic style that I like. And only twelve years old. I've built it up with a quirky mix of parts: modern Campy Centaur drivetrain and brakes (all alloy, no carbon), Centaur hubs laced to Mavic Open Pros (all silver, including the spokes), Cinelli handlebar and stem from the early '80's, Thomson seatpost (silver), and Selle Italia Flite saddle (older one with embrodried logos). I couldn't be happier with it, it looks like a classic to me-

It seems to me that a lot of us on this forum are into vintage style as much as anything. Don't get me wrong, I really want a '70's frame with chrome lugs to be my end all be all. And I appreciate a restoration on an old track bike or touring 3 speed. But mostly I'm just into the vintage style bike over a modern style "plastic" bike. I like steel frames with quill stems and downtube shifters and polished alloy wheels and so on. But I like to customize too so when it's all said and done a Waterford serves my purpose about the same as a '73 Motobecane.

Many fine frames were built by various manufacturers in the 90's that are virtually identical to their mid-late 80's counterparts. About the only difference might be 130mm spacing vs. 126mm on some of the earlier frames but I'd consider that insignificant. There were some frames built in that period using some of the newer tube sets that would be a little different, like Columbus Max or EL-OS but even those typically have classic styling. I suspect it might have varied among manufacturers but I believe Bianchi for example stopped using lugs after 1997 and went to TIG welded frames. Even so, my 2002 Bianchi is the classic diamond shape, horizontal top tube, and Dedacciai tubing. I think it was one of the last made like that before production shifted to Taiwan. Waterford still makes classicly styled bikes today so there is really a lot of continuity for them. I would agree with those who say classic but not vintage. Not yet anyway

"Vintage" deals more with age, "classic" more with style, so later model steel bikes can have "classic style".

I believe the racing categories bear this out. You can ride a 2008 bike in the classic category, I think, if it has a lugged steel frame and enough spokes, etc.

And you can go to LickBike and places like that, specify a Cinelli lugged, steel classic frame, and they'll build it for you. Simply a new version of our C&V models. Pretty much my kind of bike, but then I'd have nothing to work on...

It's neo-vintage

I think my '83 definitely qualifies.

I don't think of my 92 as vintage yet, but I plan on keeping it until I do!

Did Waterford build any Paramounts for Schwinn after they became a separate company? If not, exactly what year did they build their first non-Paramount bike? I was under the impression it was early to mid ninties.

The bankruptcy was in 1993, and the Zell/Chilmark fund (Sam Zell of Chicago) purchased the assets of the family owned Schwinn Bicycle Company. Zell/Chilmark did not want the Waterford, WI plant, but did want the name "Paramount". Richard Schwinn and Marc Muller purchased the Waterford plant from the bankruptcy court, but since Zell/Chilmark owned the rights to the name Paramount, Richard and Marc named their company Waterford Precision Cycles, and began manufacturing "Waterford" (and later "Gunnar") brand bicycles.

For the first year and a half of Waterford Precision Cycles, they continued building Schwinn Paramounts for the new Schwinn operating partner, Scott Sports Group of Boulder, Colorado. The last Paramount built by Waterford was in September, 1994. At the same time it was building the 1993 and 1994 Paramounts for Schwinn, Waterford developed and began building its first bicycle model, the Waterford 1200 road racing bike.

Over the years since 1993, Waterford has supplemented its own brand with an extensive private label business. While the 1993 and 1994 Paramounts are examples of this, Waterford also built BMX bikes for Standard Byke Company during its first year gaining expertise in TIG-welding, and subsequently earned other customers including Rivendell, Heron, Salsa, and others.

Well if they are not today..... they will be another 10+ years from now.

So, my 1995 1200 is probably a very early example. How long was Waterford using Reynolds 753? I was under the impression Reynolds didn't supply anyone with it unless their welders/brazers were certified.

From the Paramount History section of the Waterford website:

"Later in 1992, PDG began developing the Reynolds 753 version of the OS tubeset. Reynolds 753 is the heat-treated version of its famous 531 tubeset. After years of experience Reynolds had developed the most consistent results from the use of OS tubing. Although 753 had been offered since the latter 1970's, Schwinn's brazers had never submitted to Reynolds certification tests. When they finally did in 1992, the results came back consistently as the finest examples of silver brazing in all their years of testing.

753 tubing began to appear on Paramounts during the summer of 1993."

So, at least some (and maybe all) Paramounts built by Waterford between the summer of '93 and the end of production in September '94 were 753.