I am building up a 1972 Paramount P-15 frame and I was wondering what brakes would fit. I was planing on using center pull Weinmann's but I see there is a variety of sizes. Would other brakes be more appropriate?

Karl the standard brake was the Weinmann's but on other models you could opt for Campy Record side pulls. I think that was not an option on the P-15 but only on10 speed models or non touring models. Having said that I have a 1974 P-10 touring bike that the original owner paid the $30 up charge for the Campy brakes. Roger

Thanks. What size Campy's do you have on yours?

Roger is right, as usual. Weinmann center-pulls were standard on the P13-9 and P15-9 (there wasn't a P10 in '72). The first generation Campy side-pulls were optional on the P13-9, but according to the '72 Paramount order form were not an otion on the P15-9 because they wouldn't provide the necessary clearance for fenders (fenders were an option on the P15-9, but not an option on the P13-9).

The optional Campy side-pull brakes on a 1972 P13-9 would have been the 2040 group (2000 front, 2001 rear).

FYI, here's the 1972 Paramount order form (courtesy of Bob Hufford's SLDB website).

Stan, correct me if I am wrong, but the 2001's had to be used in conjunction with a drop bolt to fit on the Paramounts properly, correct?

-Kurt

I think that depends on what year/model. The Paramount the racers rode on in 1975 or so did not have drop bolts. I remember riding behind a friend staring at his rear brakes for lap after lap in a criterium, no drop bolt. Touring models would have had a drop bolt. I knew some people with those bikes and Campy brakes, maybe that's where I learned that there was an available drop bolt.

This is all great information. Any one know what size Weinmann's fit the 1972 P-15 front and rear (610, 710, etc...)? Karl

My '72 P15-9 was originally equipped with tubulars and I relaced the hubs to 700c clincher rims. Since these rims have the same 622 mm diameter, the stock Weinmann center-pulls that came on the bike from the factory worked fine. The front is 610, the rear is 750.

Since the pads are about as far down in the slots as they will go, I believe the same brakes would work on 27" (630 mm BSD) rims as it looks like there's more than 4 mm upward adjustment in the caliper brake pad mounting slots.

Kurt, I don't know the answer to that. I'm pretty sure the P13-9s, which were the only '72 model that the Campy's were an option on, had the brake bridge mounted lower on the seat stays than the P15-9s (remember, the P15s needed fender clearance). So, the Campy rear brakes may have fit OK without a drop bolt. I do suspect anyone trying to mount the early Campy side-pulls on a P15-9 would require a drop bolt because of the higher brake bridge.

There's also the question of whether P13-9 frames built for 27" clincher rims had the brake bridge higher than those built for tubular rims, and I don't know the answer to that one, either.

My January 1974 P10-9 uses drop bolts front and rear with the Campy brakes. Original owner alternated between tubular tires for racing and 27" rims for touring. That may be why the were used. Roger

Good question. So happens that the '72 all-chrome P-13 presently at Business Cycles happens to have Campag sidepulls - if I recall right - and Mavic tubulars (700C, of course). Might call John up to ask if it indeed has drop bolts.

EDIT: Called him up. No drop bolts. I gather it was only required for the 27" frames, for it is impossible to do without the drop bolt on my 27"-equipped '70.

Well, I can tell you without hesitation that my '70 P-13 (27") and the '72 P-13 (700C) at the shop - regardless of being the same size down the seattube - are entirely different in dimensions.

Most apparent is the differences between chainstay bridges on the two machines - my '70 is 6cm measured from center of BB to the center of the bridge. The '72, on the other hand, is closer to 5cm, if not less. Not that it particularly matters, but my '61 is 5.5cm. While I haven't measured chainstay or fork length either, I'd venture to say that it is likely shorter then the '70.

-Kurt

My '70 suffered a similar retrofit when it was updated with the NR calipers in the late '70s/80s (the calipers were post-CSPC). Fork crown was drilled to accept recessed mounting (I inserted a sleeve to compensate when I mounted the replacement Weinmanns) - is that the case with your fork as well?

-Kurt

Roger, the P10 was a touring model (like the P15) with optional fenders, so that might be another reason drop bolts were used (to get the brakes low enough since they were built with clearance for fenders).

I planed to use 27 inch rims. What is meant by tubular in this size. Is this a Schwinn thing or something else?

Not just Schwinn, but lots of others. It has caused great confusion over the years. If you go to THIS ST. SHELDON'S PAGE and scroll down to Tubular Tires ("Sew-ups"), you'll find an explanation for the confusion:

Tubular tires are mainly used for racing. A tubular tire has no beads; instead, the two edges of the carcass are sewn together (hence the term "sew-up") with the inner tube inside. Tubulars fit only on special rims, where they are held on by cement.

Tubulars existed in 6 different sizes, but only two of them are readily available these days.

- Full-sized tubulars fit rims of the same diameter as 622 mm (700c) clinchers. This size is sometimes referred to as "28 inch" or "700". It is also, confusingly, sometimes referred to as "27 inch." The "27 inch" designation is inaccurate and obsolete, but you'll sometimes run into it in older printed material.

- In clincher tires, there is a real difference between "700c" and "27 inch" sizes, but for tubulars this is a false distinction. Whenever you see mention of "27 inch tubulars" the writer is actually referring to standard full-sized tubulars, as used on most racing bikes.

- "26 inch" or "650" tubulars are smaller, mainly used on time-trial or motorpacing track bikes.

- "24 inch", "22 inch" "20 inch" and "18 inch" tubulars are sizes formerly used for children's racing bikes, but pretty much extinct these days.

Tubulars are also sometimes called "sew-ups" or "tubs" (British usage.)
If you want to sound like an ignorant yahoo, call them "tubies" or "tubeless tires."

BTW, if you plan to use 27" rims, do yourself a favor and buy new ones like the Sun CR-18 or M-13II that have hooks for the tire bead. Many older 27" clincher rims didn't have hooks, and you could only use 80 or 90 psi tire pressure before running the risk of the tire blowing off the rim.

Or if you want something in the vintage field that would do the trick, Mavic Module E or Module 3's in 27"/630 would do the trick as well.

-Kurt

I just went out and looked at my P10 and the front drop bolt is recessed and the rear bolt is nutted. So I guess I have both options on one bike. Roger

Drilled out, no doubt.

-Kurt

My P-15 Paramount came with the Weinmann centerpulls, but they and the sidepulls I replaced them with years ago, have been a sore point ever since I bought the bike in '72. I'm currently restoring the bike with a mix of parts (sorry purists). The brakes I'm using are Tektro 556 switched front and back with the fork drilled out using an extended recessed mount in the front. The drivetrain is White Industries double-double set-up (a dual speed with no derailleurs). The rims were switched to 700C running cyclocross tires for riding on dirt roads and commuting occasionally.

I bought this bike from the original owner and saw the the original order forms. He told me the bike came from the Paramount shop as I have it. So if it was drilled the folks at the Paramount shop did it. He showed me the papers which he wanted to keep to give me the reason for the asking price. $495 for the P10-9 plus $30 for the Campy brake option. I paid him what he paid for the bike $525 25 years after he bought it. Roger

Thanks everyone for the information. I've gotten a set of center pull Weinnman's (610 front 750 rear) that look like they will work and give the option of either 27 or 700 wheels.

Karl