Brooks Saddles Date Code Decoding
 

I have a Brooks B66 that was bought new in the late spring 1978 in New Paltz, NY.

In the course of rehabbing it recently, I noticed it had a 3 character code 'O K 7' inscribed on the inside underside of the saddle top.

The first place I went to find out what the code might mean was vintage-trek.com. Alas, it appears that the Date Code key had been lost, according to a correspondent quoted there.

But I'm wondering...could the '7' be for the year 1977, then the 'K' for the month November?

Goodness knows what the first character--either an O or a zero, might mean...

Anyone have further anecdotal 411 to add?

I don't have anything to add, but I wonder how many of us will be pulling our Brooks saddles off our old Raleighs! :D

I bought mine a little more than a year ago and mine says O C 7 underneath it....
Oh yeah, and it's a honey B.17 Special.

This might be of interest.

Prior to sometime in the 1960s the inside of leather side flaps were stamped with a date code. The stamp denoted the month and year of manufacture. Mrs. O'Donnell* writes: "Unfortunately, the "code" book is now lost so we cannot decipher the actual codes used at that time. It is, sadly, not quite as simple as A=January, B=February etc. This 'flap' stamping changed to the frame stamping around the 1960's although there was an 'overlap' period where both the leather and the frame were stamped."
The metal frames of the saddles were stamped with the date of manufacture from sometime in the 1960s to about 1988.
The current method of stamping Brooks saddles is a colored stamp on the underside of the saddle, with a number for the year surrounding a letter for the month.
(*The above Brooks information was provided in an e-mail from Mrs. E. O'Donnell in the Sales Department of Sturmey-Archer, when that company owned Brooks. Mrs. O'Donnell was writing to Robert Williams in response to his query about date codes. Our thanks to these two individuals and to Larry Osborn, who secured a copy of the original e-mail.)

The B.66 on my '80 Raleigh has (ilegible letter)79 stamped on the underside of the 'half moon' metal part.

I recently acquired a Brooks Professional that I was told came off an early Schwinn Paramount. I was looking for a means to date it and stumbled upon this thread. I figured I would detail my findings in hope that it will help another.

I've seen the information from the Sturmey-Archer email in a few posts, so I figured I'd start there. Lucky for me, it looks like I have one of the saddles from the "overlap period" and that used BOTH dating methods. Looking closely and under bright light, I was able to make out a "B" over the numbers "73" on the rear frame. According to the email, it dates this saddle at February 1973. This took several attempts to capture using my cell phone camera, but its actually quite clear and unsmudged in person.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...1-Version2.jpg

Now for you puzzle solvers out there, the stamp on the leather is "L I C." I can figure a possible "3" from the "C", but how February or a 7 come from the "L" and "I", I haven't a clue.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...l/IMG_2682.jpg

Other photos of the saddle can be seen here:

Top: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...l/IMG_2686.jpg

Bottom: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...l/IMG_2685.jpg

Side: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...l/IMG_2687.jpg

Rear badge: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...l/IMG_2683.jpg

Post bracket: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...0/IMG_2679.jpg

The saddle is in amazing shape for being 40 years old! The seller said it was from his fathers Paramount and that the saddle itself has been stored in a cloth bag, inside a shoebox, and in the closet for years. It has a few "character" scuffs, but the leather is not cracked at all. It has no sag or sit bone imprints in it. It seems to be broke in like a 5 year old saddle, but has patina far beyond that. The copper rivets look shinier in photos than they actually are. Some of them have a greenish patina that I was careful not to wipe off. I wiped it down with a terry cloth and gave it a coat of Lexol. It's beautiful - in my eyes. Soft, comfortable, and the smell reminds me off tack hanging in an old barn back home.
Anyone know what these vintage saddles in this condition sell for in today's market? Does the fact that the month and year are visibly dated add any value? What about the fact that it came off a Paramount? Do Paramount owners/builders seek original replacements in this kind of condition?
I planned on keeping it and putting it on my Soma Smoothie (century bike), but I'd be curious of what the estimated resale value is. I know only the just of Brooks saddles but nothing from the vintage era. This saddle was being ridden 15 years before I was conceived.

My Professional is stamped B 78 with the letters UJR

There's no way to prove it came from a Paramount...the codes have nothing to do with it. But there are collectors who will pay a premium for a date correct saddle. Pricing is all about condition. Most of the original surface of yours has work through so its hard to say. Saddles with the original surface go for $120 +

This is a $120 saddle:

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Brooks-Profes...Sv0Hh/$_57.JPG

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44...ps75fcffb4.jpg
My Imperial is stamped with "DCO"....but the D seems to be stamped backwards for some reason.....or is it "OCD"....now it's kinda bugging me....is the "O" really a zero??...but it's way too round to be one, so where's the expected number??..... It must be "OCD".....must be.... must be....:twitchy::twitchy:

While scouring Craigslist and feeBay for vintage Brooks for a couple projects of mine, it became apparent that the majority of Brooks B15 & B17 saddles I asked about had no date stamp at all. When they did, it was usually (but not always) a B followed by two numbers stamped on the rear of the bottom frame, near one of the curved ends. In a couple instances it was closer to the center of the rear frame. A number of experienced sellers were surprised to find the stamp when I told them to look in this location, as they were stamped pretty lightly. I've assumed the two numbers were the last two digits of the year of manufacture.The stamps seemed to get more common toward the end of the 70's. I've got a couple saddles that the provenance is fairly certain from the early 70's, with no date stamp at all.

I don't know much but will add a few observations.

Cantle plate codes are a letter plus a two digit number. The lowest I've seen was A 59. I've seen A, B, and C but no other letters. I Presume the number refers to the year, but I have no confirmation the letter refers to the part of the year.

Leather codes, I don't know anything about them. But I can speculate.

What's the point of a code? This is not a rhetorical question. I would say the main reason for manufacturer codes of this kind is quality control. But the fact remains that a large proportion of cantle plates had no stamped code, even on saddles made in years when codes are known to exist.

Now if the codes on the leather and cantle plate both indicate a date, they only indicate the respective dates of the leather and the cantle plate, not of the saddle as a whole. They could vary by... I don't know how much. Years, for sure.

But I don't really see the point of a date on the leather. As far as quality control is concerned, the important data would be the source of the leather. The quality of a saddle is going to depend to a great degree on the quality of the leather, which will depend on any number of factors beyond Brooks' control. But one thing they can control is from whom they buy leather. I would assume the codes on the leather are there to connect the saddle to information in the records-- (now lost) records of purchases of leather from suppliers. If we had all those records, I presume we could learn some amazing stuff... the size of shipments of leather, the sources. We might even be able to determine that 1974 was a particularly good year for Argentinian leather, or something like that.

I, personally, am willing to live without this data.

Found this info on the Brooks facebook:

• https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net...33145233_q.jpg
  
  Brooks England Andy, Look underneath your saddle, there should be a code (ex. "0C9" = March 2009) Is there a code on yours?
  August 25, 2011 at 9:27am
  
  
  
  
  

The tiny stamping on the cantle plate of my Professional says "A 77" which would be reasonable timing for the saddle to have been manufactured in 1977, since it was purchased new by a friend in 1979 at our local, low volume LBS.

Just wanted to add that data point.

The leather is branded underneath QBR and off to the side of that, there is a 2 and what looks like a partially branded H.

The frame on a re-skinned vintage B17 I have doesn't seem to have any stampings anywhere, apart from "Made In England."

www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm#Brooks

I don't endorse the remark about TheHeadbadge.com, though.

Lets wake up this zombie. TheHeadBadge data for Brooks Pros shows 2 different badges; v1 and v2. It says v2 lasted until at least late '79. I have 2 Pros, 1 small rivet and 1 large rivet that are stamped A 80 (first 1/4 1980?) that have the v2 badges so apparently they used that badge for a little longer.

Yes, obviously Kurt provided only a few datum points, noting a certain badge occurs on a saddle with certain date code. To really nail anything down, you'd want to compile data pairs, where a given model of saddle, such as B.15 narrow, had a stamped steel badge at one date, and a stamped aluminum badge a year later. Also missing are dated examples of saddles with no badge at all. I admire Kurt's effort to present the data at his disposal, but it should be obvious that a whole lot more data is needed. Tony Colegrave's reluctance to endorse the Headbadge data is significant.

I have some data points I could contribute, if you can get some momentum going....

I also appreciate Kurt's efforts and I posted in an effort to expand the database. Keep 'em coming rhm, I love this kind of trivial minutia.:)

I have a Brooks Professional from an English frame that has 'B8' on the metal part. Would this be 1968? I'm pretty sure the frame is a mid-late 70s build.

I don't suppose you can get a photo of that, could you? The code normally looks lIke this:
A
68
That is, a letter (A, B, C, or D), centered over a two-digit number between 58 and 88.
Are your two letters in one line? Is the stamping clear, or hard to read?

just to add a data point for Brooks Pro's... I've got a Pro that was on a '74 Raleigh International that I bought NIB back around the year 2000. I definitely got lucky!

The Brooks Pro is the type with small rivets, as seen in the Raleigh catalog of the day. The date code on the cantle plate is B73, and there is a code inked onto the leather with "L" above "HP".

top view
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7892/4...fb0199_c_d.jpg

side view of the logo embossed into the skirt
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7858/4...e37c2f_c_d.jpg

a look at the badge on the rear. It lacks the "England" underneath the "Brooks" that is on my newer Brooks
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7839/4...830b57_c_d.jpg

the B73 date code on the cantle plate
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7899/3...8f9cd5_c_d.jpg

the ink stamped code on the underside of the leather
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7853/3...15209d_c_d.jpg


Steve in Peoria

I do apologise I looked again and it's B 84. The 4 was hard to see at first. Mystery solved. Although didn't know they were making Professional models in the 80's.

For me, I seek Brooks saddles with the vintage (two digit year) stamped into the metal frame. The newer models, those marked on the leather, do little to blow my kilt up. Though I have little proof, I feel that the quality of the leather stamped offerings are less, in the quality department, than the Old School metal stamped ones. Does anyone know when Brooks went from metal stamped information to leather dyed? Thanks.

1990.

Brooks b66
 

It's a fine seat.

Time passes--mine has been retired, together with the seat sandwich that enables mounting the B66 on a more modern bike.

old brooks saddles
 

i bought some brooks saddles .. one of which has a d59 date on the frame the others have no dates and one has a patent plate ( it also has a stitched edge with a wire support in )

d59

the one on the right has a brass patent plate (rec no 807766.7.8 pat. 452336 depose)connecting to two side of leather

it has a brass brooks badge and what looks to be brooks stamped on saddle leather on seat
.. does anyone know what saddle that is ? .. have several and going to attach new leather to a 1973 frame .. .. still researching the best method .. wet form or vac bag ( i dont think i can replicate the 2000lb pressure form the brooks factory uses lol . oh shame i cant post the pictures ah well

RHM, who contributed to this topic can be found above. He is the in-house expert on refurbishing leather saddles. I'm sure he will be of help.

From your description, it may be the Swallow style
I use vacuum forming over a mould as shown in this thread. Although I have made Swallow styled saddles just by hand forming the the wet leather, this being a recent example. The custom anvil and setting tools are seen in this photo. It has a small brass plate holding the two skirts.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...696d61b9dc.jpg
I make my own rivets and this thread shows the rivets being made, and the tools I use to set them
If the original leather is on the saddle, note the position of the tension screw, carefully remove the leather, and throw it in a bucket of water. After an hour remove it and put the leather on a flat surface, with a heavy weight covering the top. Press it flat and allow to dry. Make up your pattern from that adjusting for the stretch measured from the tension screw which had been required.
If you need any further help, please ask.

thanks guys some good info and inspiration here
 

thanks Big Block and Tugadude i think it must be an early swallow like you say .. looking at the brooks site the only difference is a line of stitching along the edges that loops the leather over a wire on each side from front to back .. some great resources in here looking at what i have (i got 12 assorted saddles in an ebay auction from near my hometown in uk birmingham home of brooks . it looks to be 4 brooks at least and 4 other leather saddles with 2 dunlop rubber saddles that look like i could swop out for a leather saddle too ) .. loving the work you did on your saddle Big Block it looks mint .. with the saddles i have i think i may try one with a vac form one with a leather form .. and in the process of building a book press which i use for stamping leather and thinking there might be a way to incorporate I have been using sendcutsend for projects and may get a layered template made (i model stuff in software called fusion360 ) ..its great to see your saddle ,rhm s saddles and an artist called obsidianmonarch who also restores old brooks .. appreciate